A parent’s experience of court and pre-proceedings: Laura

[Introduction]     

This is a Research in Practice podcast, supporting evidence informed practice with children and families, young people and adults. 

Hannah: Welcome to this Research in Practice podcast, my name is Hannah Scott, I'm a research and development officer at Research in Practice, and I'm also a qualified social worker, and I previously worked in child protection roles. I'm delighted to be talking to Laura today, who is a parent who has had experience of working with social care, pre-proceedings, and also in family court, and she's going to share her experience today, and some key messages for social workers in supporting families through this process. So, hi Laura, thank you for joining me today. It would be great if you could just start by giving us just a really short introduction to yourself and what your experiences have been, if that's okay.  

Laura: I'm Laura, I've been a child in care myself growing up, I've had court proceedings with all my children, and I've had positive experiences and negative experiences.  

Hannah: I think that you've had experiences that mean children haven’t remained in your care, but you've also got your daughter that's in your care now, so you've had those two different experiences of court proceedings with different outcomes, is that right?  

Laura: Yes.  

[The PLO process and receiving a PLO letter] 

Hannah: So, if we start by talking about the before court part, did you go through the PLO (Public Law Outline) or the, sort of, pre-proceedings process before going into court?  

Laura: Oh, with my first children, yes, I went through the PLO process, because I started off with child protection first, and then the child protection wasn't working, so then they had a PLO meeting and decided to go to court.  

Hannah: So, was that your first, sort of, insight into the legal processes and the court processes that social workers follow?  

Laura: Yes.  

Hannah: How did that feel for you to find out you were going into pre-proceedings, do you remember the conversations that were held at the time and how you responded to that?  

Laura: Well, I was a looked after child myself, so I've always had meetings and stuff, so I didn't realise how serious it was, I just thought, 'Okay, it's just another meeting.' And when I received the letter, like, stating what the meeting was actually about and stuff, it was a really scary experience.  

Hannah: And how did reading that letter feel? Because we know those letters can be quite strongly worded. How did that feel to you as a parent? And also, you've said you were in care at the time as well, so quite a young parent. How did that feel to get that letter?  

Laura: It was really scary, because, like, they acted like I did something wrong and I was in trouble about something, and I don't know, being a young parent, especially a looked after parent, like social services is not really a big support for you. So, seeing that, like, I wasn't prepared for how I was going to feel, I didn't get no support in it. The wording was in red bold writing, and for example I think it said, 'If you don't attend this meeting, we'll have the meeting without you and take it to court. You must come to this meeting.' Something along them lines, they just listed all the negative stuff I did and why they wanted to take it to pre-proceeding. They just made me feel like I was a monster, like I was such a bad person, ‘We’re more concerned about the welfare of your children,’ something about safeguarding and stuff. So, it wasn't nice just reading all of that in the letter without someone explaining it to you.  

Hannah: Is there anything that you think could've been done differently within that pre-proceedings process that may have helped avoid court for you, and have that different outcome?  

Laura: Originally why I went into child protection, and I was in a domestic violence relationship, so they did a PLO meeting because they found out I was still seeing my partner when they told me not to. Even though it was an abusive relationship, I was 16 at the time and he was older, I feel like they should've understood where I was coming from, and more support on my side is needed to help me come out of that relationship so I could've put my kids first. But I was a kid myself, so a telling a 16 year old, 'You must leave your boyfriend.' It's like a teenage rebellious thing, it's like, ‘why are you telling me to leave who I'm with?’ And I'm really young, so I feel like they should've had more understanding and more support.  

Hannah: It must have felt like quite a difficult dynamic as well with social care being the people sending those letters and raising those concerns about your parenting, but also being the corporate parent to you as a child in care as well. Did that affect the relationships that you had with your own social workers at the time?  

Laura: I don't think they were really supportive, like they kind of pushed me over, the social services who were looking after the kid, so it was really hard. I feel like they should've gave a voice to me a bit more as well, my social service team, like and explained, because the whole point was that they said that I lied about being in a relationship, but it's like, I'm 16. If you think of a 16 year old as a teenager, like, I could look at my child now and, okay, you could lie about something like that because you don't want to get in trouble, it's not like my age now where it's different, you know? So, I felt that my social services team could've been more supportive.  

Hannah: So, when the decision was made to go to court then, how did you become aware of that, how did that make you feel, and did you receive all the paperwork to go through? Because that's a huge part of the court process. So, could you just talk me through a little bit about how that experience was for you?  

Laura: I had two different experiences. When I was young I think things were a bit different, so I think it was better. So, they let me know at the PLO meeting that was going to court, so it was just like, okay, I understood, and then I understood that I was going to get a letter and stuff. So, that was a bit easier to handle because I knew where I stood. Then with my second child it was like, they told me over the phone we were going to court, and then I got a letter, like, not even from the postman, from a delivery courier serving me with a notice to go to court. That felt really horrible, it was just like, oh my gosh, I thought it was just what you see on TV and stuff, I didn't know that they actually do that.  

Hannah: So, that second time had nobody giving you, sort of, a heads up or a warning that that was happening, or talked you through it before hand?  

Laura: Originally I knew there was support, and I've grown up in care, so I haven't had a big support network or family, so I went to social services and said, 'Right, I'm going through a lot, can you just help me care for my son?' So, they gave me a section 20, and I thought, 'Okay.' They said, 'When you're ready and you feel better you can come ask for him back.' Then all of a sudden I got served to go to court because they had other concerns. So, for me it was just, like, ‘I come to you for support and, like, now you're trying to take him away from me?’ 

[A parent’s perspective on the paperwork] 

Hannah: And did you receive the paperwork for, you know, the legal bundles and all the assessments and the statements from the local authority? How did it feel when you got those?  

Laura: My solicitor got everything, because I had a solicitor to take me to the PLO meeting, but the second time I didn't get no paperwork until after court, and they said that I needed to get a solicitor, that's when I got the paperwork.  

Hannah: So, did you have to attend court then not having pre-read any of the paperwork, or having those detailed conversations about what the local authority were concerned about and what they were recommending?  

Laura: Yes, I had to go to court to find it out.  

Hannah: That must have been a really difficult experience for you then.  

Laura: Yes, it was, it was horrible, it was like I’ve come for support and now it's just gone back in my face. And if I did have a wider support network like family to have him, I wouldn't have gone to social services.  

Hannah: In terms of, sort of, learning then for social workers, I presume a recommendation that you would've wanted to give in that situation is making sure that you have time to understand and see the information beforehand, would that have been more helpful for you?  

Laura: Yes, definitely. And to actually let parents know what you're thinking and planning, like, or having a meeting with the parent before, especially in that circumstance where a parent has come for support. Because you guys say, 'Come to us when you need support and help,' but then you don't want it thrown back in your face. So, if they do want parents to be open and honest, they have to be open and honest.  

Hannah: Is that where then, looking at the two experiences that you've had, the pre-proceedings process was difficult, but maybe quite helpful for you, because it enabled you to be in that forum of having advice and having clear and open conversations?  

Laura: Yes, because I already knew what their concerns were, I knew what I was in for, I knew that they wanted to go to court even though it was hard, like, I knew some of the stuff they said I could do to do prove that I am capable. So, I was like, my first court process was a lot easier, even though the outcome wasn't great, but it was a lot easier to understand.  

Hannah: And when you did receive the court paperwork, what did it feel like having a look at that, and were you able to understand what was being said in that, and did the paperwork reflect the conversations that you were having with people at the time?  

Laura: No, on the paperwork it made me look like I was just the worst person, because it highlighted so many negatives. When I was younger, I think I was more emotional, because it was, like, 'Why are you not saying any of the positive things about me?' Like, I remember going through the paperwork and it would be like, can I take care of the basic needs? I was just like, 'Why do you have to use "basic"?' 'Basic' just looks like, you know, just the everyday need. Basic is cooking, cleaning, making sure they're content, that's not a basic need. Like, little words were upsetting me in the paperwork, but then all the negative things.  

[Writing a letter to social workers] 

Hannah: I think that's a really interesting reflection you've made, actually, because basic needs is a term that a lot of social workers use, I have probably used it myself as a social worker before. But thinking about that really is, what does that mean and how does that feel? Because basic isn't the nicest word, and like you said, there's a lot more meaning behind that isn't it, and sometimes that's what we need to say rather than relying on the terminology that we're all so used to, but parents aren't used to, and I think we can all be guilty of that sometimes.  

Laura: Yes, definitely. I feel like the wording of certain things they need to change. Say, like, can parents meet the needs of the children, is so much better than, can parents meet the basic needs. Especially if you have a report that's so negative about you, the good things you're doing are minimised. I just felt like reading the paperwork about myself, my voice wasn't heard at all, so it was just like, I need them to hear my voice a little bit, see my personality a bit more, not just this paperwork that just makes me look like the worst human being. So, yes, I asked the judge if I could send pictures of our times together, I started documenting stuff, I said, 'Can I send you a letter I've sent?' Because you don't really have a voice other than what the social services say.  

Hannah: And how did the judge respond to that, then?  

Laura: So, the first letter, even though it was a bad outcome, they were really impressed, because I remember when I was trying to fight for my kids, I got a job, they were really impressed with that, they were like, 'This is really good and amazing.' But obviously the decision, once they feel like I was trying to manipulate them, but I wanted them to see my character.  

Hannah: So, even though the outcome wasn't a positive outcome for you, that you weren't able to care for your child at the end of the proceedings, it sounds like it's really important for you to have those positives recognised and to have your strengths, not just as a parent, but as a person, recognised.  

Laura: Definitely, and, like, getting the character references from work, I was just trying to show, like, how it looks in the paperwork, and how people see me in day-to-day life is completely different.  

[Preparing for court] 

Hannah: And who helped you prepare for court, you know, the practicalities of attending and what to expect, and was there anything that was done in that preparation that was particularly helpful or unhelpful and that you would've liked to have happened?  

Laura: The only support I really got was from my solicitor, because I've had good experiences of solicitors and bad ones. So, like, my first solicitor was just amazing, he was just a really good solicitor. And my second one, he was, I don't know, sometimes I felt like he was on the social workers side, so it just depends. So, that being your only support makes the whole process really difficult.  

Hannah: Did you have the same solicitor at each court hearing, or did you have different solicitors that you had to introduce yourself to at each point? I know that can be quite daunting for parents if they're attending court and they've got to try and recognise different faces.  

Laura: My first solicitor, I had her, a colleague, so they were really trying to fight my case, so if she couldn't do something she recommended her colleague who has got expertise in a certain thing. She had a barrister try to, kind of, represent my case in court, so it depends on how they're doing it. If they're doing, 'Oh, I'm not in today.' Whatever, it makes it harder. But then if they're doing it to try and fight your case, it's nice, because it's like you were actually trying to find the best to help my situation.  

Hannah: Were there any surprises that you found in attending court, anything that you expected to be different, anything that you found both better or worse?  

Laura: Like their recommendations sometimes changed. Like, for example, they wanted to put me in a mother and baby unit, and first social services weren't agreeing with it, but originally that's what you agreed with. So, it's just like why don't you want to put me in a mother and baby unit? And then they used to talk about, like, expense a lot, that's not my problem if the mother and baby is expensive, and the judge would say, 'Well, she needs a whole three months, twelve week assessment, why are you trying to cut it down in a six week assessment? That's not fair because of expense.' Like, I feel social services shouldn't bring that topic into conversation.  

[Implementing a Special Guardianship Order plan] 

Hannah: Yes, I think that's a really important point, we know there's lots of financial pressures in social care, but families have got to come first. You don't want to hear a conversation about finance and money, do you. Do you remember if there were any, what we call kinship care assessments of family and friends completed during the proceedings, so that there were family members that could either support you or to care for your child?  

Laura: Yes, my children currently are on a SGO plan, Special Guardianship Order plan, like they did the assessments. I feel like, I don't know, they didn't really give correct information about what support is actually available under that plan.  

Hannah: So, is that the support for you, or for the SGO carer, or for both?  

Laura: How they make it sound is, basically, if everything is all good in the SGO, then if you want to get your kids back in the future and the guardian agrees with it, that's fine, like, so it kind of makes you feel like, okay, I just need to fix some of my issues and just sort out my life, and then I can get my kids back, but it's not, I feel like they should explain a bit more and how much power the Special Guardian actually does have over you.  

Hannah: So, you would have found it helpful to have, again, those transparent conversations about what the assessment was and what that would mean if that order was made, then?  

Laura: Yes.  

Hannah: And were you involved in those assessments at all, were you able to share your views on the person being assessed, or did you feel that was something that was done quite separately?  

Laura: Yes, everything was done separately, I just got the information from the person who was being assessed, and just the outcome from the social worker, I didn't really get a proper, like, in-depth assessment, like I should be able to read some of the stuff that you put in the report about this person, saying why you give them the information about me and your concerns about me and why you want them to be a carer. I think it should work both ways.  

Hannah: So, it would've been helpful for you to have more information, shared within the assessment as well, not just about the assessment?  

Laura: Yes.  

Hannah: When decisions were made about contact, or family time, did you feel that you were involved in those and the right decisions were made looking at your child's time with you and with those wider family members?  

Laura: No.  

[Advice for social workers on supporting family time] 

Hannah: What would've been helpful to be done differently then, to make sure the social workers are really thinking about promoting that quality family time?  

Laura: Because you're under so much pressure, especially if your child is in social services care, you just say yes to anything. So, if they say four times a week at 9:30, you're going to be there, but it's just like, every morning I'm up in the morning and I'm at the contact centre by 9:30. Like, you should give parents options of timing and stuff, because they're under so much pressure, and they're kind of scared of the situation. If you say 8 o'clock in the morning, they're going to be there, even if it's inconvenient for them. So, I just feel like they should give options and not just, like, abuse their power because they know you're in that kind of scared and vulnerable mind frame.  

Hannah: So, you felt like you were given your timeslot and that decision was made, instead of it being a conversation about what would work for you as well and how to get the best out of you in that time together?  

Laura: Yes, because 9:30, it's like maybe, I don't know, I've got an hour and a half, so why didn't you do it for like 10:30, so then I could go for lunch, or we could have lunch together or something, instead of it being so early, and then you just feel like it's rushed, yes. And they don't give you no options, and I wasn't going to ask for any.  

Hannah: And during the court proceedings, as those decisions were being made, did you have to give evidence at all, did you watch other people giving evidence on your situation?  

Laura: Both times all the evidence was given via paperwork.  

Hannah: So, during the proceedings and with those assessments, did you feel that your identity needs were recognised, and you as an individual, for example, did you have any support given to help understand paperwork if you found that difficult, or detailed conversations about your ethnicity or culture, or anything like that?  

Laura: Yes, my first one I had a really good relationship with my solicitor, so that support was recognised, yes.  

[The end of proceedings] 

Hannah: So, at the end of proceedings then, and again you've had obviously the experience of two different outcomes of proceedings, how did it feel when those proceedings ended?  

Laura: Both times they just leave you to it, and it's like, such a high intensity rush process of information, meetings and stuff, it's like as soon as they leave it's a real big drop. Because it's like, hold on, I was having contacts twice, three times a week, I was having a meeting every two weeks, I was having phone calls like every other day and stuff. So, all of a sudden, like, that has stopped, it really impacts you because it's just like, oh, is this what you could've done and you've made me go through all of this? So, yes, it's really not a nice feeling.  

Hannah: So, even though the pressure of court proceedings wasn't easy, it's suddenly stopping and not having that support sounds like it was quite difficult for you?  

Laura: Yes, of course. It's difficult for a lot of people, because it's just like, you can't just have such constant battling with parents and stuff, and then you just leave, like it's not nice. It's just like, at least have a couple of follow-up meetings after, you direct them to appropriate services, like if they need support, you know just little things would help the process.  

Hannah: Yes, I think you were saying before about support with education and things to do with your time, so that void is filled, would've been helpful.  

Laura: Yes, definitely.  

[Factors in a positive outcome] 

Hannah: What would you say, out of your experiences, were the things that really contributed to a positive outcome for you?  

Laura: My supervision order had therapy for a whole year, which I really needed, it really fast-tracked everything because the waiting lists for therapy normally are up to 36 months, so having the social services on board I got a therapist and we did amazing work, she's helped me a lot in my life. So, that was one of the main positive experiences.  

Hannah: That's great to hear. And was there anything that the local authority or the social workers did that you found particularly helpful?  

Laura: It's like, once you're in their good books they really are supportive. It's like, when they're fighting for your kid, it's like, yes, it's just a battle between you two. But then once you're fine and they know what the outcome is, they are actually really supportive. Like, I remember on my supervision order they would ask me how many meetings would be beneficial for me, what I needed, if I needed anything 'you call us, not we call you'. Like, it was such a big difference, it was like, oh, okay, cool, to the point I started to worry if I didn't hear anything for so long. I'm just like, 'Have I done anything wrong?' And they're like, 'No, we're just leaving you, you're doing well.' But it just makes you anxious, because you've had such a battle with them.  

Hannah: Yes. So, again being informed and being able to make those decisions with them sounds like it was a really helpful experience for you, and again helped you understand what was happening, so when things go quiet you would have that reassurance.  

Laura: Yes, like, 'Oh, well done.' Even a quick text or something, like, 'Everything is looking good.' You know, just a little reminder that everything is fine, or just a little catch-up. But once you, like, go completely silent for a whole month, a parent naturally worries, 'are they planning something? Is something going to be thrown in my face?' You know, because you've had that battle with them.  

Hannah: What's the main piece of advice that you would want to give a social worker that may be attending court for one of the first times in their role, or maybe a really experienced social worker that is very used to it. What are the key messages that you think that social workers need to know?  

Laura: So, I wrote a letter to a social worker on the court stuff, it says, 'Dear social worker, I just want to start off by saying please judge us parents from what you see, instead of the paperwork that you read. Having things written down can make us parents look worse than it actually seems, and that causes tension in the working relationship before it even starts, and the whole aim is to have a working relationship that does not fall apart. To us parents it feels like we're getting attacked by darts because of all the things you've read about us in the past. You social workers already intimidate us, and we look at you like charts, because you have the power to move our hearts, yes, our children are our heart. Us parents would love for you to be straightforward with us and honest, so we can focus on keeping our kids, and keeping us out of the dark, not understanding a version of things that we did. There's always different versions of each story, maybe put yourselves in the parent's shoes. Maybe change the wording that you use, because nothing is worse than being accused. Try and see it from the parent's point of view, because it's the child that will lose in the long run if the job is done wrong. I know this by growing up in care, because even though I was removed from my mother, my life was still unfair, because I didn't get the real care or unconditional love. No one beats a parent's love, because a parent's love is like two white doves.'    

'And parents will want to fight social services for their children, but it should not feel like a battle, it should feel like teamwork. All the time, but we feel powerless, we feel like we're always under a test, we feel like less of a parent and that we have to prove that we love our kids more than you do. Did you know the whole experience of social services causes long term trauma for a parent? After you leave, did you know all the assessments and tests you put parents through cause us constant self-doubt in our ability to parent, and we doubt if we're good enough in general. For our children, if we pass the pain enough in general for our children, even if we pass the pain of the whole experience, it does last, whilst you guys move on with your lives and we still live with the guilt of our past. But you did not know that because you're there for the child, and I get that, but a parent is a big factor to the child, so parents need emotional support too. If a child could choose I don't think they would want to lose their parent. More support is needed to understand, and meeting in the middle, and giving a chance to change, because for their kids parents are willing to change. It is up to you, social services, to show them the right way.'  

Hannah: That was really, really powerful, thank you so much for sharing that. I think that's a perfect note to end on, that really shares such an important insight from your experience for social workers and what they really need to be thinking about when they're going through those court processes and working with those families and those children. So, I just want to say a huge thank you for that, for your time today.  

Laura: Oh, thank you.  

[Outro] 

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