Learning from and supporting the voice of families in court

[Introduction]  

This is a Research in Practice podcast supporting evidence informed practice with children and families, young people and adults.

Hannah: Welcome to this Research in Practice podcast. My name is Hannah Scott. I'm a research and development officer for Research in Practice. I'm also a qualified social worker and I've previously worked in child protection roles. I do a small amount of independent social work and I'm a systemic practitioner. I'm delighted to have with me three young people from the Family Justice Young People's Board today. The Family Justice Young People's Board, that will be FJYPB, are a group of more than 70 children and young people aged between eight and twenty-five who live across England and Wales. All members have had either a direct experience with the family justice system or have an interest in children's rights and the family court. Their overall aim is to support the work of the Family Justice Board, which aims to deliver improvement to the family justice system so it provides the best result for children that come into contact with it. They work to promote the voice of children and young people that have experienced family breakdown, including those children and young people who are involved in the family court proceedings. And they work with a whole range of family justice organisations and agencies which include Cafcass, the Ministry of Justice, the Family Justice Board, mediation services and lots of other organisations, and they do some brilliant work. So, I'm delighted that they've been able to get involved in this podcast today. So, I'm going to start by letting you each do a quick introduction if that's okay. So, Amy would you like to go first?

[Background]  

Amy: I'm Amy and I'm 23 years old and, yes, I'm really excited to be here today and hopefully that this will be an opportunity to help guide social workers in the future to not make the same mistakes and improve their work.

Hannah: And do you want to just give us a short overview about your experiences that have led you to become involved in the FJYPB and your experiences with family justice and social workers?

Amy: So, from quite a young age I had social workers coming in and out of my life, but that was through the local authorities. So, I have public law experience and I never went directly through the family courts, but I have a great interest in it of course because I got taken into care. And at an older age, now I feel in the position to give back and hopefully give something to the community.

Hannah: Thank you. And Khalil?

Khalil: Hiya, My name is Khalil. I'm part of the Family Justice Young People's Board and I am 23. And I have had experience of international adoption and also fostering in 2015 at the age of 16/17. So, I've had experience of adoption through the courts, but fostering through the local authority. And I hope today the information I give might help people in the future to assist in their training.

Hannah: And Imogen?

Imogen: Hi, I'm Imogen. I'm 18 years old and I joined the Family Justice Young People's Board to try and make a more positive experience to other children and young people going through proceedings than what mine was. I had a mixture of both private and public law proceedings with my time in court lasting around seven years with me being taken directly to court in the end by my birth mother.

[Experience of Section 20 voluntary care agreements]  

Hannah: Okay, thank you very much for sharing that. So, in the podcast today we're going to explore how the family justice system felt for each of you and what key messages really we can share for the social workers and practitioners that work in the family court and the family justice system. So, Amy, I know you've spoken previously a little bit about the use of what we call Section 20 and, sort of, voluntary care, which I think was used in your situation. Could you just talk through a little bit about that. Was that your first step towards care proceedings? And what was your understanding of that process, and how did that feel for you?

Amy: So, above all I just want to clarify that Section 20, we call it a voluntary care agreement, but I wouldn’t say that going into care is voluntary, like, a child, a young person, they don't want to go into care. If they could stay with their families they would. So, first of all for me when I read that, a voluntary care agreement in the situation that I was in at the time just made me feel really angry at the system because there was no means that I wanted to do this. And the process at the time, I never really got explained what it was all about because I remember I'd gone to school as normal and then I'd said bye to my own mother in the morning, like, my birth mother. And it always brings back really bad memories when either... it was all really sudden so I just disclosed the information at school. The police came in and social services came in, but that same information I'd been disclosing multiple times before. So, the Section 20 was a really good thing for me when they used it, although they didn't explain it, any option to go into care was what I wanted and for me that was the answer to seven years of sexual violence and going through all of that. Where I had been disclosing it multiple times allegations had been made but nothing. No child protection policy really was used and put in place to prevent this from happening.

Although people knew that stuff was happening, it wasn't stopped. And with the Section 20 it was able to stop because I was able to be listened to because I had the Gillick competence, I think it was called, and they were able to say, 'Right, she can make the decision, she's not able to live with her parents, she can go into care.' But, yes, I wish in general that a Section 20 could be used for younger children sometimes, because even at the age of twelve some young people are aware that what they know is right and it just needs explaining to them and needs to be more open there and talked about as an option, in my personal opinion.

Hannah: That's a really interesting reflection, I think. Really powerful for social workers to think about, and a lot of conversations we have in practice is about the use of language, and quite often from a parent's perspective and it's the parent that will sign that Section 20 in those situations and, yes, we may use the phrase to try and explain Section 20 as voluntary care. That's, yes, really powerful to hear that if that's not what you want, or even if it is, that you're in agreement with that. It's still not an easy situation and that phrase could maybe trivialise that experience. So, I think that's a really powerful thing to share. Thank you. And was that then followed by formal proceedings for you? Was Section 20 that, sort of, entrance into the legal process for you?

Amy: No. So, my case was quite complicated in terms of when I was younger the criminal courts were involved. I lived abroad for some time and there were different courts involved there, but nothing was even taken to the family courts, but it was all criminal proceedings due to the information that I'd given. So, I had the initial court hearing when I was quite young and then police involvement on and off doing investigations, but due to certain professional malpractices things weren't investigated how they should have been done and it left things carrying on to an extent that it just got impossible for me to remain in the situation that I was in.

[Respite care and foster care]  

Hannah: Yes. And have either of you, Khalil or Imogen, had experience of, sort of, what we call Section 20 care?

Khalil: I've had some experience of voluntary care but that was me voicing my opinions, firstly, to go into what they called respite. So, it's like going into a family or somewhere for the weekend because they thought I was not safe at weekends, I need to be somewhere during education. And then obviously when that was voiced to the people who adopted me it turned out violent, aggressive, not understanding the situation and it was a violent home to be living in, which has been since I was about the age of eleven. But no-one ever listened to my opinions. And I said to them, 'How can you put me in respite? There are so many safeguarding issues, what's going to happen if I go on a Friday or come back on a Monday after school, what are you going to put in place?' So, what I then decided was to go into full-time foster care which lasted nearly two years.

Hannah: And was that at your request then that that foster care placement was initiated?

Khalil: Yes, I got a phone call while I was in college and things got delayed and delayed and delayed, and I just said, 'You made a decision and you left me in limbo over the summer holiday. I need to be in foster care because things have escalated to the point where I can't be brought back down.

Hannah: Yes, and that's a really big thing for any young person to have to do to say... almost direct the social workers and the local authority to say, 'I'm not safe, I want you to take those steps.' Rather than it being that professional judgement. So, that must have been a really big thing for you to do and to ask for?

Khalil: It is a massive decision to take on yourself because you're being forced to do it. I knew since age of about 11 to 15/16, safeguarding was always on alert. They'd probably come out to the home at least once a week because I raised safeguarding issues and safeguarding was never done properly. So, they never spoke to me in the school. Only when I disclosed something. And then when I got home then they'd turn up without me knowing they were going to come. Which left me in a situation and other people, if that was the same thing happening to them, where you can't speak in front of your parents, you can't speak in front of the people who have adopted you or you're in their care. Because I was threatened if I spoke out that I could be killed and it's a very high chance of that happening because it does happen in my culture.

[The voice of the young person in care arrangements]   

Hannah: Yes, that's a lot for a young person to do isn't it, and it sounds like that step to really feeling like your voice was heard was you having to take quite a drastic action of saying, 'I want to go into foster care.' Is that fair to say or were there any other points where you felt your voice was listened to, or, even once you were in foster care were there still things that you felt weren't necessarily being listened to from your voice?

Khalil: I never felt I was listened to throughout school and throughout the local authority. Going into foster care was actually the best thing for me to happen because it was a safe place to live. But unfortunately, when I turned to eighteen I, kind of, got wiped off the system. No-one could ever find me and therefore I didn't even exist because my foster carer was trying to find out information over my worker when I turned eighteen, and then things broke down because there were no professionals or social workers coming into the foster home. So, there was no foster care, social worker and there wasn't a social worker for the other people or me, which relationships got broken down and I took the decision to leave the foster home because I didn't think it was appropriate and fair for the other two kids to see what was going on between me and the foster family. So, I just said to myself, 'I'll go somewhere else and let them be happy, not listen to this.' They're only nine or seven, they shouldn't be seeing these things happening. But after then I got support of writing a letter to the foster family and the young kids to explain everything in a child way after probably, like, a year. And then at the age of 21 or 22 that contact was started again with my foster family that I lived with which now we still have contact.

Hannah: That's nice to hear that you've still got that relationship with them despite what sounds like quite a difficult time around the point you reached 18. And it sounds like there are again quite a lot of, sort of, key messages and learning there in terms of approaching 18 and the age where foster care may not continue. We know there is provision. There should be support up until 25 and, you know, there are different services, but it sounds like those conversations weren't necessarily held with you and it's something that again we're, you know, particularly mindful of in the work that we're doing at the moment around the family justice system of what happens after proceedings and what support is there for families. Because if it goes from lots of things happening to nothing that can be quite difficult as well, I think, for families.

 [Language and accessibility needs in international cases]  

Khalil: And especially what professionals are involved because certain professionals are very well and it's evidenced that there are some good workers out there but you do get the odd one who doesn't understand you and writes things the way they think. Even, like, in my pathway or staying put plan, all the words and then things that I said never got to put into account, it was all adult-ish. I think a lot of families who have these kind of things, the child doesn't get listened to. It was evident in my case if they came and did house visits they tried to have an Arabic person come in. But if they didn't, if it was an after school visit or during a school visit, the family members would always be told to speak on my behalf and translate. But the translation wasn't taught to me, so, only if I heard the conversation in the language and I shouted, my voice was never ever listened [to]. Even in school obviously first year I didn't have the language of English very well. My language barriers weren't the best at the time, but my voice was never listened to, and even I was not communicated to me very well. Like, now I know there are things in place like the police, you can ring them and, you know, if you're in a place you can't speak you can press a number on the phone, like a code, it's to tell them that you're in, like, a domestic abuse situation or something and they can come out. That was never communicated to me. Because I rang the police a few times which I couldn't speak but they never came out or did anything.

Hannah: So, it sounds like there were some potentially missed opportunities to really support you in getting your voice heard which may have prevented that situation that you've explained where you had to say, 'I want to be taken into foster care.' And maybe if you'd have been supported to have your voice heard and have those interpreters and be seen in those different settings that you may have been able to avoid that situation?

Khalil: Yes, maybe the situations, or, a lot of people told... when I told them my story or told them everything that happened, there was all the professionals saying, 'Why have the local authority not intervened and gone to court and got a care order? You should have been at least looked after since the age of twelve.' That's what everyone was saying.

Hannah: Was the decision made by the court for you to move into foster care, or, were you moved into foster care and then the court proceedings started?

Khalil: No, there were no court proceedings because I think I was 17 or 16, they said because I was an adult that they didn't need court.

[Cases in public law and private law]  

Hannah: Thank you for sharing that. Imogen you've spoken about experiencing both public and private proceedings which we know that a lot of social workers, the majority of the work is public proceedings but there is an increasing amount of private law cases that social workers are becoming involved in. Can you talk a little bit more about that experience and how those two different processes worked alongside each other and felt for you?

Imogen: Yes, so, my experiences, kind of, I didn't really understand at the time the difference between the two, but the police and social services got involved and I had social workers and guardians throughout, kind of, my proceedings. Primarily it was my school, my primary school, once I disclosed some information about abuse that was happening in my home that got social services involved in my life, of which I had some, kind of, more negative experiences trying to disclose this information where I was often told that this could not be happening in my home. Or, that in my case, it was my mother who was abusing my dad over me and they would say that my mother wasn't capable of these things and that she did love me, which was quite a difficult experience. And towards the end of my proceedings I'd already been taken out of my mother's care, and because my dad could look after me I had moved to live full-time with my dad and I was having supervised contact with my mother in public places and with professionals present. At the end I ended up having a final proceeding of which when I started to say I didn't want to have this contact with my mother, they involved, kind of, a guardian and solicitors and I had my own solicitor. Which is where I think it verges on the public law side rather than private law where my dad wasn't involved in our proceedings anymore and my solicitor was representing me to try and have no contact with my mother.

Hannah: And you mentioned, sort of, being told by professionals that those things that you were talking about weren't happening. How did that feel for that to be said to you, and what do you think was influencing the social workers in that situation in their judgement?

Imogen: So, in my experience the reasons for things being quite problematic in my house was that my mother had really severe mental health illnesses that weren't being treated, and with her mental health problems it meant that she was quite good at keeping this from professionals. So, when we'd have assessments by social services or when people come and see us out about on, kind of, a day to day, they wouldn't pick up on these signs. And it was only, kind of, after the years and years of me keep on trying to say the same things were happening that the judge ordered a psychological evaluation of our family where they were able to see for themselves that my mother wasn't capable of parenting me. But I think it was difficult for the professionals to see and that it was all happening, so to speak, behind closed doors. Like, it was very difficult to see that what was happening and the professionals-, there was one professional who once said to me that I was too young to wish to not see my mother and that I would regret this decision when I was older. But I've been out of contact with my mother for maybe six years now and I don't regret my decisions.

Hannah: I think when we spoke before you mentioned about domestic abuse and almost disbelief that a female could be a perpetrator of that. Do you want to, sort of, talk through that a little bit?

Imogen: Yes. So, I think in my experience one of the things was that my mother would try and say that my dad was alienating me from her, and this was often a narrative, kind of, believed by the courts over me trying to disclose what had been happening with my mother. And I think one of the professionals, there was, kind of, one social worker who really didn't believe what me and my dad were saying. My school had got involved and they understood what I was saying about what was going on at home and this professional just said to me, 'Your mother can't be capable of these things.' Which was really difficult because at the time all I wanted to do was to not live with her because it was really, really difficult living with not only her mental health really affected our lifestyle, but also she would ignore me for, kind of, days on end. But they couldn't believe that my mother would be doing this to me and I think that was what was really difficult because often it can be seen that maybe dads are more abusive. But in my scenario that wasn't the case and it was really hard to try and get the professionals to get rid of this bias that they had, to understand why in my example and experience, it wasn't my dad. It was my mum, and it wasn't safe for me to be living with my mother despite the fact that, kind of, the natural tendency would be for me to live with my mother.

Hannah: Yes, I think that's a really important point, and again a reflection for social workers about looking at the gender roles and looking at those internal biases that each of us will have, but the importance of acknowledging those in practice and really focusing on the child's voice to make sure that that information is being balanced and weighed up, isn't it? Thank you for sharing that. So, Khalil, it sounds like it ended up in the family court, but did you have some experience in, sort of, the criminal courts at all?

Khalil: There was a family court for five years, but that was abroad, that was back in Yemen. But I did end up going to give evidence in a police station for my domestic abuse, but there was some interference, which apparently I was told it should have been going to court, but it never ended up in court because they were saying certain things and they were being in favour of the person who was causing the problems. So, they weren't being on my side at all.

Hannah: So, that was talking to the police about your experience of the harm that you had suffered and that it hadn't progressed to a criminal court. How did that you make you feel that it didn't progress and that that wasn't taken any further?

Khalil: I was not impressed because they said, 'We can't prosecute this person because they're too old.' And other people were, like, 'No, it doesn't matter about their age, end of the day you deserve justice of what's happened to you.' It was strange. Where were all the safeguarding reports? Because there was a lot of notes written when I was at school and they went missing when the police went to the local authority to investigate, and they even checked all the records and all the safeguarding letters and safeguarding notes and files were missing, which had an impact on the case probably getting to court even more.

Hannah: So, you feel that the, sort of, the lack of bringing together that multi-agency information had an impact on that criminal aspect of the case that you wanted to proceed and have your voice heard in that respect then?

Khalil: Yes.

[Cases in criminal court and family court]  

Hannah: And, Amy, I think you've mentioned a little bit as well about experience of the criminal court. Do you want to talk through, sort of, your experiences there?

Amy: So, when I was quite young the police investigations had started and it took... they said it was quick, so, to get to courts it took about a year to get to the criminal court. But in terms of my age at the time, they tried to make it a lot easier for me in terms of instead of taking it to the crown court they took it to a magistrates court instead, but obviously the case gets dealt with differently in the two courts. And, so, I used to be selectively mute, but I never got this diagnosis because I couldn't physically speak in these situations and verbalise my opinions. So, at the time I didn't really know what was... you know, I knew what I wanted but I couldn't express that in any way, even if it were writing I couldn't write it either, and for years I always thought, 'Why couldn't they have done it in the crown court? Why did they make it for me, just for me, in the magistrates court because there's not a proper judge in the magistrates court apparently?' But then it was all a bit mixed messages, so I did have a judge but the judge wasn't wearing one of the wigs. So, for me, I couldn't make sense of it. I was quite young at the time but I knew when I wanted to give evidence I wanted to be in that room because I didn't want the video link, because I didn't want the perpetrator to see what I'd look like because I'd aged a bit, but I was always mature in my thinking at the time and I'd always over think things.

So, I didn't want the perpetrator to recognise me even if it were just three years along the line. I thought it's better to be there and he doesn't see me and I'm there giving my evidence. But I didn't feel supported in giving my evidence whatsoever because I had a victim support officer. I think I got to meet them half an hour before the case had actually started and, so, before the hearing it was a bit awkward. You're sitting in this room with this lady sitting there who's a volunteer. She wants to help you and you can't communicate with her that you don't want her in the room, you want your teacher with you, because this is what I wanted. I just wanted my teacher to come in with me. And with my little voice that I had, which I actually managed to say what I wanted, they said, 'She's not allowed to come in the room, she's not trained.' But for me now looking back at that, if a child has got somebody independent with them who is not involved in the case and that's their teacher then why can't they come in there? Even if they don't have the training. And the teacher was willing to do that too. And for me also meeting the victim support officer half an hour before the case is not enough time to build a relationship because she's just a random person for you and it would have just been easier if they didn't stick her in with me, and when I gave the evidence I felt like I was being the criminal and being asked all these questions again and again and then the prosecutor was actually coming down to me and saying, 'Why don't you speak up? You've got to speak up.'

And it was actually quite shouty towards me and an aggressive tone, and it always makes me angry to think back now. Firstly, it was a child and secondly that child could barely speak because they were so anxious about their situation. Also, the fact that they kept on questioning my evidence, like, as in, 'Oh, well, you surely would have known what time it was on the clock.' I said, 'I never went into this place to expect it to happen.' And then they'd go and tell me, 'Well, sure you would know whether it's two minutes, two hours.' And, so, I couldn't express that and all I just did was stay silent and say, 'I don't know.' Which obviously wasn't great support for my case. And in the court building itself one of the sheets had actually fallen down. They'd Blu-tacked up paper to hide the perpetrator in the box and because I had quite severe PTSD at the time... but then the fact that that had fallen down and I could physically see him, I freaked out, but I just froze as I did at the time. So, in general at the criminal court I found that when the hearing took place a lot of assumptions were made about mental health in general. At the time I didn't have a diagnosis, i.e. depression. But people, professionals who weren't psychologists assumed that I had depression due to my father moving out when I was young.

But little did they know that later it would all be involved in a much bigger case, in a whole paedophile ring. So, it was a lot harder and my father was involved in that. So, when they made the assumption that I had depression based on my father moving out and therefore I allegedly made up the story about this man in the court, and that was the story that I was being told by the professionals themselves in the court saying, 'Your mental health is not in a state.' And again, I couldn't say anything. But, again, looking back now I can really understand as to the reasons why I reacted in the certain way and people said, 'Well...' Because my mum's evidence being an unreliable witness in the court, at the time they didn't know that so obviously they didn't know much better, but the assumptions were made. 'Okay, she's got poor mental health. She's not eating properly. So, that's due to depression.' And also, the fact that I hadn't actually had a social worker until the court proceeding had ended, and then I had a social worker doing an assessment because of my mental health. But it didn't make sense to me that I hadn't had that support ongoing from the beginning and I'd just attached to this police officer, this detective, and when he was not allowed to get involved anymore obviously that was another relationship which broke down for me.

But further on down the line investigations took place after this court process, but it was all a bit going back to the initial ones. So, everything was all mixed up by professionals and information, and then I was held accountable for them not keeping record of things because in that court itself, I go back a couple of years later and ask for the records, and they say they have no record of the court case ever being held there. I give them the relevant information. So, for me that feels like, you know, a child had this major incident in their life and they have no record of that this person was in court, and that is the key to a lot of the answers of how things panned out basically. But going back to the thresholds that we were talking about, about family courts being a balance of probability and criminal courts being beyond reasonable doubt, for me, I've only recently looked into that, as in because I'm such a nerd that I want to study law, but just looked into generally if a child reports abuse in a family court, for example, and says their parent is doing this to them, it's a balance of probability. So, there has to be no specific evidence in proving beyond reasonable doubt. So, if there's any speculation of doubt in a criminal court you're just, sort of, pushed off as, 'Oh, it didn't happen. It's not true.' Because they couldn't prove it with all the evidence.    

So, if you have a good solicitor or a lawyer on the other side then, again, that's a socio-economic thing. Our family had no money to afford a decent lawyer and I got a public one, and what I would wish is that for future children to be able to choose their lawyer from a range of public ones because my voice wasn't being heard and the defendant was getting heard and he'd paid so much money for his that he got through the court case easily. No criminal... so, he's got the record that he was taken to court for this. The police knew it had happened but obviously there was no proof of it. So, for me that didn't give me justice. But in a family court, for example, I would have got taken away from my family a lot earlier if I had disclosed it in a family court, or in that reams of things, because in public law and with police they have to have physical evidence of it and they look at you as if you're just making up stories because you've previously had a case found not guilty, and then future evidence is, like, 'Well, that evidence seems a bit strange. She keeps saying things again and again.' But if they hadn't made that assumption, if they had looked at it at a blank case, a blank slate from after that court case then they would have got to the conclusion a lot earlier that this was all interlinked.    

But people didn't get to that conclusion and I would just hope, hope, hope so much that authorities and multi-agency work, they all work together and understand that in this country things still do go on. We might not see it or know of it but we would be naive to say that, like, trafficking and things aren't happening. Because what a child discloses to you is not always the full extent of things. So, it's important to have somebody you trust like a social worker, make sure that relationship is there as soon as the child reports any kind of alleged abuse. There's always a reason as to why they say something even if it's not true parts of it. I always wish for every child whoever makes a disclosure, to have a social worker or a youth worker to work with them and come to the bottom of things and understand exactly where this is coming from and, yes, understand them and really advocate for them.  

[Young people’s perspective on proceedings and their paperwork]    

Hannah: Yes, I think that's really powerful. It's not just listening to what the child's saying but it's using that analysis, which is a word that's used a lot in social work practice and, you know, oh, it often comes up about social workers need to analyse and think about not just what the child is saying but why are they saying it and what might be happening. And I think it's a really powerful story that you've spoken through as well, and seeing it from a child's perspective in terms of those different court thresholds and how that must feel to say you're believed in one court but not in another. As a social worker I've had discussions with parents and adults about them saying, 'Well, I wasn't found guilty in a criminal court, so, why are you pursuing this as a social worker or in a family court?' And that can cause confusion from that adult's perspective, but looking at that from the other way round as a child as well and thinking those messages that you're not believed I think is really important for all professionals working within family justice to think about. So, thank you for sharing that. So, did either of you have the opportunity to read any of your paperwork or to sit down with a social worker, or a judge, or a Cafcass guardian to really talk about what was happening in court?  

Imogen: Yes, I did get to see some of the paperwork. I was, kind of, best updated towards the end of my proceedings in the final court case that was between me and my mother, and my guardian and my solicitor at the time were really good at keeping me informed. And I was slightly older at this point so they could inform me of more what was going on. Previous to that I felt as if I wasn't, kind of, best informed about what was going on. Often, I had quite a lot of professionals in and out of my life. I think I had fourteen FCAs (Family Court Adviser) over a period of time, like, fourteen FCAs and the social workers working with our family. Which was really difficult to, kind of, build the relationship with any of them and was really difficult for me to disclose anything that was happening because I didn't feel like I knew them, and it was often difficult for them to share information with me because they were always changing. And it was probably why more so my school got involved, and my school were probably the best place for me to find out information until the last proceedings of which I was party to the information and so could find out a bit more.  

Hannah: And, so, when you were party to the information, was that then because you were older and you were, sort of, assessed to be competent to be able to be more directly involved in those proceedings then?  

Imogen: Yes, I think so, and I think it was more so because it was no longer a, kind of, battle between my mum and my dad, but I was already out of my mother's care and it was about ending our contact relations, or reducing them, or organising them to be something that we could both agree to. And that was when the professionals more so than ever involved me in the discussions. And I think I would say part of that was maybe because of... they probably saw me as credible because previous to that they hadn't really believed what was going on. They had, kind of, not listened to my voice at all when I was trying to explain what was happening between... when me and my mother were just living together, the two of us. But after that because we'd gone through so many sets of proceedings before of which what I had been saying the whole way through was finally acknowledged in one of the later proceedings, I think then they listened to my voice a bit more and I had more of a direct, kind of, say, and I met with the judge which really helped in my proceedings.  

Hannah: And how did that feel to meet with the judge then?  

Imogen: So, I remember being quite overwhelmed about it at first. So, I'd written two letters, I think, with FCAs to the judge before that about how I was feeling about everything, and then when I went and spoke to the judge it was... because we'd had the same judge on every set of proceedings that we'd had, it was really good to finally meet the person that was making these decisions and being able to discuss what I felt was going on and what I thought was best, kind of, for me and safest for me. And he was really good at listening to me and was probably one of the, kind of, pivotal moments in our proceedings because he listened to me when I said that, you know, my mum was able to conceal her struggles more so with professionals when they assessed us, and this is one of the reasons why we had the psychological assessment of our family because previous to that nothing had really flagged up with professionals. And after that conversation the judge ordered in the court for us to have this psychological assessment and then for the findings to be brought back to the court. And in that example of him listening to me my life was changed for the better. He did listen to what I said, and through the psychological assessment things were actually able to change.  

Hannah: I think that's a really powerful message as well for other young people if they are feeling-, you know, talking to a judge does feel really daunting. It feels really daunting to social workers to think about, you know, being on the stand and talking in front of judges, so, we have to think about how would that feel if we-, we might offer to a young person, 'Would you like the opportunity?' But it still takes quite a lot of courage and understanding, I think, to be in that position to say, 'Yes, it's something that I'd like.' And it sounds like a key part in that was professionals supporting you in first, writing to the judge then as well. So, is that something that you would say is, sort of, important for workers to promote?  

Imogen: Yes, definitely. I think writing to the judge initially really helped in being able to first, kind of, introduce what was going on to the judge. I know obviously the judge knew, but from my perspective I felt that previously when I'd had FCAs and social worker who, kind of, doubted what I was saying and didn't really represent this as a court effectively, being able to then say directly to the judge in the letter, 'This is how I feel. These are my words and what I'm trying to tell you.' Was really important, and it also meant when I got to meet with the judge that we, kind of, referred to the letters that I'd previously written, which was good because they had direct words from what I had been saying.  

[The opportunity to have your voice heard]    

Hannah: And, Amy, is there anything that you want to, sort of, share about your experiences of talking to professionals, getting your voice heard, or, you know, did you speak to a judge at all?  

Amy: So, I did actually get to speak to the judge before the criminal court proceeding and we all met and I think that was a clear moment in my life, despite the case being unfavourable, the outcome I mean, he let me sit on his chair and I still remember that always gave me that big sense of confidence suddenly. And I don't know how because the whole way, until the actual hearing I'd been saying, 'Oh, I will do it on a video link giving evidence.' But on that day, I decided I will do it in here. And it was the judge who actually made that happen for me because I whispered to him when I was on that chair, more confident and was, like, 'Yes, yes, I want to be in the court room and do it.' Because that empowered me in a way to say my truth and I always remember back to that. So, that was like Imogen just said, a pivotal moment really despite-, you can't blame a professional for one thing necessarily because they can only do their best. They're only people. But the way that he made me feel in that moment is partially the reason why I do the things I do now, like, on the Family Justice Young People's Board, because it's given me the confidence to go out there and say to people, you know, 'You're not alone out there and there is support out there eventually.' And in terms of other professionals in my life, I've had probably quite a few. Relationships were never that easy for me.    

So, I usually build up barriers. But the most positive relationship I've had is actually quite recently with one of my PAs (Personal Assistant) because I'm a care leaver now, and I still do receive support. She was really good. I'd requested a new PA out of completely different reasons because I'd built up complete barriers towards her because of, you know, stuff going on in my own life and then reading my own file and having that all back, and I'd blamed her. But again, it wasn't her fault because she'd got into my life a lot later than all this stuff had happened. And then in that moment when she was actually showing her human side and not just a machine social worker side, and she said, 'I was actually really upset and I actually had to stop in my car afterwards, after our meeting, to let it all out.' And I actually think because that relationship, I thought we had that relationship and when we met up the next time and we discussed it again, she showed me that she was still there for me and that she wouldn't hold that against me and that she did actually acknowledge how I felt. She said, 'I can't change that you feel upset and angry at the system for everything that's happened.' That she would reverse that. And I think even if that's more recent it still plays a bit part in my life because, you know, it's drawing a circle that's all the way I want to see it.    

You draw a circle to try and heal from everything which has happened, and the fact that she acknowledges how I feel is a big part of my life. And other professionals, police, quite a lot of involvement. The first detective that I had, he had children of his own and it was just brilliant the way that he spoke to me as if I were his child because he showed that level of openness and funny side of him. 'Oh, I wore my best tie for you.' And all of that emotional connection with somebody, it's not about getting the outcome necessarily, it's the little events that you remember in your life. So, even if it's as silly as a red tie, for example, and I can still remember that, it's showing that human side of you, and I think that's a message I want to give to all professionals, to remember to show that human side of you. Kids who are going through tough times, a lot of them just want to be acknowledged and not to be fixed most of the time. Yes, we want a solution, but at the same time just acknowledge how we feel and don't always try and fix us.  

[Advice for practitioners]    

Hannah: Yes, I think that's really important because sometimes we can be really focused on the outcome and, you know, as social workers we can be anxious about young people we work with and thinking about that. But even if families don't get the outcome that they want, it's so important that they feel they've been listened to in that process and that can often make those difficult outcomes easier to accept for both parents and carers and young people. And I think that's really come across in the stories I think that you've both given today as well, so, thank you for that. What do you think the best bit of practice was, or the most positive situation from all your experiences that could be quite powerful for workers to hear?  

Imogen: For me, mine was one of my social workers at the time, she decided to take me to go and meet with her. She picked me up from school one day and we met, kind of, outside the home and outside of school, which for me was a massive thing in that previous to that I'd only ever met one of my social workers in the same building as my mother was and that had been really difficult for me to feel comfortable to say anything that was happening. It was so important for me to be able to feel safe and comfortable and to be able to even talk about what was going on at home. So, for me, that was probably the best bit of practice.  

Hannah: Thank you, and what about for you Amy?  

Amy: For me, personally, I would say it was my counsellor at the time. Again, with another allegation that I'd made later in my life but after another incident, that one counsellor who I'd only known for a short period of time, she always believed in me, she always fought my case. And even if it wasn't part of her job, she would be calling up social services, she would be calling up the authorities, and she never gave up. She always told me, like, 'You've got this and I believe in you.' And although it overstepped the professional mark, you know, you're not supposed to have-, there's a no touch policy, but we had a hug just because that was the only thing that I needed at the time. Like, you know, you just wanted to cry and that comfort, that physical connection, although that's not really professional practice in that sense, that was the most important thing which any professional's ever done for me personally because they went out of their way and they went that extra mile to make sure that I was safe.  

Hannah: Yes. And then finally if there's, sort of, one top tip or key piece of advice that you would want to give to any practitioner that works in family justice, so, a social worker, a judge, a Cafcass guardian, what would that be?  

Khalil: I think anyone that comes to work with someone, don't judge them by their skin colour, because you might say, 'Oh, they're brown, or, they're ginger.' At some time, you're going to get judged. Like, a lot of the time I get told, 'Oh, you're a Pakistani, can you speak Urdu or this language?' It's, like, 'Err, no. I'm Arab, I'm from Yemen. I'm not a Pakistani. Why do you judge me?' Don't judge the person. A skin colour does not tell them because a person forms their own identity. So, don't judge, just ask them. Just make the person at ease, confident. If you don't make it easy and simple, how are you going to get something out of that person? You're just going to scare them away and then that person is never going to trust you or want to speak to you again. And, also, if the person can't speak the language, don't judge them and say, 'Oh, okay they can't speak the language, oh, let's go and get someone who they know in school that can speak that language, or, we'll get their family member.' No, never do that because they're not independent. They might not translate to you exactly what the person... the adult professional said to them. They should be always independent, so they can translate to you word for word what's being said by the professional so you can actually give your own views and points across.  

Hannah: Yes, I think that's a really powerful message, and also, you know, talking about culture and identity as well is so important for any practitioner to not make those assumptions as you've spoken about and to have the courage just to have those conversations and not make it too complex. Saying, 'Tell me about it from your point of view. Tell me how you want to be referred to. Talk to me about your culture.' Rather than feeling uncomfortable or making those assumptions.  

Khalil: Because I was that traumatised. They should be saying, 'Oh, where do you want us to meet? Do you want to do it at our office? Do you want to do it somewhere where you actually like or somewhere that you relate to? Or, do you want to go for a walk?' Make it accessible that meets their needs because you're going to get more out of them if it's somewhere confident not somewhere that's, you know, the person knows they're not going to be able to say anything.  

Hannah: Yes, I think that's really important, and some young people will say, 'Don't come and see me in school. I don't want to be taken out of class. I don't want to be, you know, seen to be different or have to miss my education. Or, have my peers say, "Who was that person?" Or even if they don't see the social worker, "Why does every so often, you know, you get taken out of class? What's happening in those situations?"' And I think it's so important that social workers do take that time with each individual young person that they work with to say, 'How is it best that we communicate together? Where do you want that to be?' As you were saying, if there's a problem and if you're worried about something who can you contact in a crisis, and having that support in place. So, that's really powerful, thank you.  

Imogen: Mine would be listen to me from the beginning, because in my proceedings the things I was saying from day one were the exact same things I was saying seven years later, and I really do believe if the professionals who were in my life earlier on had listened to me and had, kind of, shared my view with the court and made the changes in my life that they later made for me, if they'd done that years before I would have been in a much better position and I wouldn't have had so much, kind of, emotional trauma coming out at the court proceedings. So, mine is listen to what I'm saying from the beginning.  

Hannah: Thank you. And what about you Amy?  

Amy: So, it's important to listen to the young person from the beginning as soon as they say something. Take everything that they say as the truth because for them it's their truth. And then also looking at what they're not saying, so, are they reacting in a certain way? What is their behaviour? And then also analysing that behaviour because it's not necessarily behaviour it's also the whole context behind it all. And in terms of language also for professionals to watch out, and one specific example which was in the court when the prosecutor was basically saying to me-, so, the quotes were, 'Rape is a petty crime, I shouldn't be here. I should be dealing with murders.' And for me, that hurt me, it still stayed within me and, you know, there's so much going on for that young person at the time and that again those little words stick with you. And it's about acknowledging everybody's trauma because different traumas are at different... yes, maybe nobody has died but inside your identity your soul and everything is literally tearing away inside you, and that feels like you're dying too. So, actually acknowledging everyone's truth and not putting it down because one thing seems worse than the other.  

Hannah: Thank you. I think, yes, that's a really quite... you know, I found that quite difficult to hear you say and that's your experience as well. So, absolutely we really need to think about the power of language and what impact those words can leave with people that we work with. I want to say a huge thank you to you all for your openness and sharing your stories and this, you know, hopefully will be really helpful to all those social workers and practitioners that are working within family justice to really hear young people's voices and hopefully make positive changes for any other young people and families that are going through any level of court involvement be that criminal or the family courts and work with social workers. So, thank you very much.  

[Outro]    

Thanks for listening to this Research in Practice podcast. We hope you've enjoyed it. Why not share with your colleagues and let us know your thoughts on Twitter. Tweet us @researchIP.  

[Introduction]     

This is a Research in Practice podcast, supporting evidence informed practice with children and families, young people and adults. 

Hannah: Welcome to this Research in Practice podcast, my name is Hannah Scott, I'm a research and development officer at Research in Practice, and I'm also a qualified social worker, and I previously worked in child protection roles. I'm delighted to be talking to Laura today, who is a parent who has had experience of working with social care, pre-proceedings, and also in family court, and she's going to share her experience today, and some key messages for social workers in supporting families through this process. So, hi Laura, thank you for joining me today. It would be great if you could just start by giving us just a really short introduction to yourself and what your experiences have been, if that's okay.  

Laura: I'm Laura, I've been a child in care myself growing up, I've had court proceedings with all my children, and I've had positive experiences and negative experiences.  

Hannah: I think that you've had experiences that mean children haven’t remained in your care, but you've also got your daughter that's in your care now, so you've had those two different experiences of court proceedings with different outcomes, is that right?  

Laura: Yes.  

[The PLO process and receiving a PLO letter] 

Hannah: So, if we start by talking about the before court part, did you go through the PLO (Public Law Outline) or the, sort of, pre-proceedings process before going into court?  

Laura: Oh, with my first children, yes, I went through the PLO process, because I started off with child protection first, and then the child protection wasn't working, so then they had a PLO meeting and decided to go to court.  

Hannah: So, was that your first, sort of, insight into the legal processes and the court processes that social workers follow?  

Laura: Yes.  

Hannah: How did that feel for you to find out you were going into pre-proceedings, do you remember the conversations that were held at the time and how you responded to that?  

Laura: Well, I was a looked after child myself, so I've always had meetings and stuff, so I didn't realise how serious it was, I just thought, 'Okay, it's just another meeting.' And when I received the letter, like, stating what the meeting was actually about and stuff, it was a really scary experience.  

Hannah: And how did reading that letter feel? Because we know those letters can be quite strongly worded. How did that feel to you as a parent? And also, you've said you were in care at the time as well, so quite a young parent. How did that feel to get that letter?  

Laura: It was really scary, because, like, they acted like I did something wrong and I was in trouble about something, and I don't know, being a young parent, especially a looked after parent, like social services is not really a big support for you. So, seeing that, like, I wasn't prepared for how I was going to feel, I didn't get no support in it. The wording was in red bold writing, and for example I think it said, 'If you don't attend this meeting, we'll have the meeting without you and take it to court. You must come to this meeting.' Something along them lines, they just listed all the negative stuff I did and why they wanted to take it to pre-proceeding. They just made me feel like I was a monster, like I was such a bad person, ‘We’re more concerned about the welfare of your children,’ something about safeguarding and stuff. So, it wasn't nice just reading all of that in the letter without someone explaining it to you.  

Hannah: Is there anything that you think could've been done differently within that pre-proceedings process that may have helped avoid court for you, and have that different outcome?  

Laura: Originally why I went into child protection, and I was in a domestic violence relationship, so they did a PLO meeting because they found out I was still seeing my partner when they told me not to. Even though it was an abusive relationship, I was 16 at the time and he was older, I feel like they should've understood where I was coming from, and more support on my side is needed to help me come out of that relationship so I could've put my kids first. But I was a kid myself, so a telling a 16 year old, 'You must leave your boyfriend.' It's like a teenage rebellious thing, it's like, ‘why are you telling me to leave who I'm with?’ And I'm really young, so I feel like they should've had more understanding and more support.  

Hannah: It must have felt like quite a difficult dynamic as well with social care being the people sending those letters and raising those concerns about your parenting, but also being the corporate parent to you as a child in care as well. Did that affect the relationships that you had with your own social workers at the time?  

Laura: I don't think they were really supportive, like they kind of pushed me over, the social services who were looking after the kid, so it was really hard. I feel like they should've gave a voice to me a bit more as well, my social service team, like and explained, because the whole point was that they said that I lied about being in a relationship, but it's like, I'm 16. If you think of a 16 year old as a teenager, like, I could look at my child now and, okay, you could lie about something like that because you don't want to get in trouble, it's not like my age now where it's different, you know? So, I felt that my social services team could've been more supportive.  

Hannah: So, when the decision was made to go to court then, how did you become aware of that, how did that make you feel, and did you receive all the paperwork to go through? Because that's a huge part of the court process. So, could you just talk me through a little bit about how that experience was for you?  

Laura: I had two different experiences. When I was young I think things were a bit different, so I think it was better. So, they let me know at the PLO meeting that was going to court, so it was just like, okay, I understood, and then I understood that I was going to get a letter and stuff. So, that was a bit easier to handle because I knew where I stood. Then with my second child it was like, they told me over the phone we were going to court, and then I got a letter, like, not even from the postman, from a delivery courier serving me with a notice to go to court. That felt really horrible, it was just like, oh my gosh, I thought it was just what you see on TV and stuff, I didn't know that they actually do that.  

Hannah: So, that second time had nobody giving you, sort of, a heads up or a warning that that was happening, or talked you through it before hand?  

Laura: Originally I knew there was support, and I've grown up in care, so I haven't had a big support network or family, so I went to social services and said, 'Right, I'm going through a lot, can you just help me care for my son?' So, they gave me a section 20, and I thought, 'Okay.' They said, 'When you're ready and you feel better you can come ask for him back.' Then all of a sudden I got served to go to court because they had other concerns. So, for me it was just, like, ‘I come to you for support and, like, now you're trying to take him away from me?’ 

[A parent’s perspective on the paperwork] 

Hannah: And did you receive the paperwork for, you know, the legal bundles and all the assessments and the statements from the local authority? How did it feel when you got those?  

Laura: My solicitor got everything, because I had a solicitor to take me to the PLO meeting, but the second time I didn't get no paperwork until after court, and they said that I needed to get a solicitor, that's when I got the paperwork.  

Hannah: So, did you have to attend court then not having pre-read any of the paperwork, or having those detailed conversations about what the local authority were concerned about and what they were recommending?  

Laura: Yes, I had to go to court to find it out.  

Hannah: That must have been a really difficult experience for you then.  

Laura: Yes, it was, it was horrible, it was like I’ve come for support and now it's just gone back in my face. And if I did have a wider support network like family to have him, I wouldn't have gone to social services.  

Hannah: In terms of, sort of, learning then for social workers, I presume a recommendation that you would've wanted to give in that situation is making sure that you have time to understand and see the information beforehand, would that have been more helpful for you?  

Laura: Yes, definitely. And to actually let parents know what you're thinking and planning, like, or having a meeting with the parent before, especially in that circumstance where a parent has come for support. Because you guys say, 'Come to us when you need support and help,' but then you don't want it thrown back in your face. So, if they do want parents to be open and honest, they have to be open and honest.  

Hannah: Is that where then, looking at the two experiences that you've had, the pre-proceedings process was difficult, but maybe quite helpful for you, because it enabled you to be in that forum of having advice and having clear and open conversations?  

Laura: Yes, because I already knew what their concerns were, I knew what I was in for, I knew that they wanted to go to court even though it was hard, like, I knew some of the stuff they said I could do to do prove that I am capable. So, I was like, my first court process was a lot easier, even though the outcome wasn't great, but it was a lot easier to understand.  

Hannah: And when you did receive the court paperwork, what did it feel like having a look at that, and were you able to understand what was being said in that, and did the paperwork reflect the conversations that you were having with people at the time?  

Laura: No, on the paperwork it made me look like I was just the worst person, because it highlighted so many negatives. When I was younger, I think I was more emotional, because it was, like, 'Why are you not saying any of the positive things about me?' Like, I remember going through the paperwork and it would be like, can I take care of the basic needs? I was just like, 'Why do you have to use "basic"?' 'Basic' just looks like, you know, just the everyday need. Basic is cooking, cleaning, making sure they're content, that's not a basic need. Like, little words were upsetting me in the paperwork, but then all the negative things.  

[Writing a letter to social workers] 

Hannah: I think that's a really interesting reflection you've made, actually, because basic needs is a term that a lot of social workers use, I have probably used it myself as a social worker before. But thinking about that really is, what does that mean and how does that feel? Because basic isn't the nicest word, and like you said, there's a lot more meaning behind that isn't it, and sometimes that's what we need to say rather than relying on the terminology that we're all so used to, but parents aren't used to, and I think we can all be guilty of that sometimes.  

Laura: Yes, definitely. I feel like the wording of certain things they need to change. Say, like, can parents meet the needs of the children, is so much better than, can parents meet the basic needs. Especially if you have a report that's so negative about you, the good things you're doing are minimised. I just felt like reading the paperwork about myself, my voice wasn't heard at all, so it was just like, I need them to hear my voice a little bit, see my personality a bit more, not just this paperwork that just makes me look like the worst human being. So, yes, I asked the judge if I could send pictures of our times together, I started documenting stuff, I said, 'Can I send you a letter I've sent?' Because you don't really have a voice other than what the social services say.  

Hannah: And how did the judge respond to that, then?  

Laura: So, the first letter, even though it was a bad outcome, they were really impressed, because I remember when I was trying to fight for my kids, I got a job, they were really impressed with that, they were like, 'This is really good and amazing.' But obviously the decision, once they feel like I was trying to manipulate them, but I wanted them to see my character.  

Hannah: So, even though the outcome wasn't a positive outcome for you, that you weren't able to care for your child at the end of the proceedings, it sounds like it's really important for you to have those positives recognised and to have your strengths, not just as a parent, but as a person, recognised.  

Laura: Definitely, and, like, getting the character references from work, I was just trying to show, like, how it looks in the paperwork, and how people see me in day-to-day life is completely different.  

[Preparing for court] 

Hannah: And who helped you prepare for court, you know, the practicalities of attending and what to expect, and was there anything that was done in that preparation that was particularly helpful or unhelpful and that you would've liked to have happened?  

Laura: The only support I really got was from my solicitor, because I've had good experiences of solicitors and bad ones. So, like, my first solicitor was just amazing, he was just a really good solicitor. And my second one, he was, I don't know, sometimes I felt like he was on the social workers side, so it just depends. So, that being your only support makes the whole process really difficult.  

Hannah: Did you have the same solicitor at each court hearing, or did you have different solicitors that you had to introduce yourself to at each point? I know that can be quite daunting for parents if they're attending court and they've got to try and recognise different faces.  

Laura: My first solicitor, I had her, a colleague, so they were really trying to fight my case, so if she couldn't do something she recommended her colleague who has got expertise in a certain thing. She had a barrister try to, kind of, represent my case in court, so it depends on how they're doing it. If they're doing, 'Oh, I'm not in today.' Whatever, it makes it harder. But then if they're doing it to try and fight your case, it's nice, because it's like you were actually trying to find the best to help my situation.  

Hannah: Were there any surprises that you found in attending court, anything that you expected to be different, anything that you found both better or worse?  

Laura: Like their recommendations sometimes changed. Like, for example, they wanted to put me in a mother and baby unit, and first social services weren't agreeing with it, but originally that's what you agreed with. So, it's just like why don't you want to put me in a mother and baby unit? And then they used to talk about, like, expense a lot, that's not my problem if the mother and baby is expensive, and the judge would say, 'Well, she needs a whole three months, twelve week assessment, why are you trying to cut it down in a six week assessment? That's not fair because of expense.' Like, I feel social services shouldn't bring that topic into conversation.  

[Implementing a Special Guardianship Order plan] 

Hannah: Yes, I think that's a really important point, we know there's lots of financial pressures in social care, but families have got to come first. You don't want to hear a conversation about finance and money, do you. Do you remember if there were any, what we call kinship care assessments of family and friends completed during the proceedings, so that there were family members that could either support you or to care for your child?  

Laura: Yes, my children currently are on a SGO plan, Special Guardianship Order plan, like they did the assessments. I feel like, I don't know, they didn't really give correct information about what support is actually available under that plan.  

Hannah: So, is that the support for you, or for the SGO carer, or for both?  

Laura: How they make it sound is, basically, if everything is all good in the SGO, then if you want to get your kids back in the future and the guardian agrees with it, that's fine, like, so it kind of makes you feel like, okay, I just need to fix some of my issues and just sort out my life, and then I can get my kids back, but it's not, I feel like they should explain a bit more and how much power the Special Guardian actually does have over you.  

Hannah: So, you would have found it helpful to have, again, those transparent conversations about what the assessment was and what that would mean if that order was made, then?  

Laura: Yes.  

Hannah: And were you involved in those assessments at all, were you able to share your views on the person being assessed, or did you feel that was something that was done quite separately?  

Laura: Yes, everything was done separately, I just got the information from the person who was being assessed, and just the outcome from the social worker, I didn't really get a proper, like, in-depth assessment, like I should be able to read some of the stuff that you put in the report about this person, saying why you give them the information about me and your concerns about me and why you want them to be a carer. I think it should work both ways.  

Hannah: So, it would've been helpful for you to have more information, shared within the assessment as well, not just about the assessment?  

Laura: Yes.  

Hannah: When decisions were made about contact, or family time, did you feel that you were involved in those and the right decisions were made looking at your child's time with you and with those wider family members?  

Laura: No.  

[Advice for social workers on supporting family time] 

Hannah: What would've been helpful to be done differently then, to make sure the social workers are really thinking about promoting that quality family time?  

Laura: Because you're under so much pressure, especially if your child is in social services care, you just say yes to anything. So, if they say four times a week at 9:30, you're going to be there, but it's just like, every morning I'm up in the morning and I'm at the contact centre by 9:30. Like, you should give parents options of timing and stuff, because they're under so much pressure, and they're kind of scared of the situation. If you say 8 o'clock in the morning, they're going to be there, even if it's inconvenient for them. So, I just feel like they should give options and not just, like, abuse their power because they know you're in that kind of scared and vulnerable mind frame.  

Hannah: So, you felt like you were given your timeslot and that decision was made, instead of it being a conversation about what would work for you as well and how to get the best out of you in that time together?  

Laura: Yes, because 9:30, it's like maybe, I don't know, I've got an hour and a half, so why didn't you do it for like 10:30, so then I could go for lunch, or we could have lunch together or something, instead of it being so early, and then you just feel like it's rushed, yes. And they don't give you no options, and I wasn't going to ask for any.  

Hannah: And during the court proceedings, as those decisions were being made, did you have to give evidence at all, did you watch other people giving evidence on your situation?  

Laura: Both times all the evidence was given via paperwork.  

Hannah: So, during the proceedings and with those assessments, did you feel that your identity needs were recognised, and you as an individual, for example, did you have any support given to help understand paperwork if you found that difficult, or detailed conversations about your ethnicity or culture, or anything like that?  

Laura: Yes, my first one I had a really good relationship with my solicitor, so that support was recognised, yes.  

[The end of proceedings] 

Hannah: So, at the end of proceedings then, and again you've had obviously the experience of two different outcomes of proceedings, how did it feel when those proceedings ended?  

Laura: Both times they just leave you to it, and it's like, such a high intensity rush process of information, meetings and stuff, it's like as soon as they leave it's a real big drop. Because it's like, hold on, I was having contacts twice, three times a week, I was having a meeting every two weeks, I was having phone calls like every other day and stuff. So, all of a sudden, like, that has stopped, it really impacts you because it's just like, oh, is this what you could've done and you've made me go through all of this? So, yes, it's really not a nice feeling.  

Hannah: So, even though the pressure of court proceedings wasn't easy, it's suddenly stopping and not having that support sounds like it was quite difficult for you?  

Laura: Yes, of course. It's difficult for a lot of people, because it's just like, you can't just have such constant battling with parents and stuff, and then you just leave, like it's not nice. It's just like, at least have a couple of follow-up meetings after, you direct them to appropriate services, like if they need support, you know just little things would help the process.  

Hannah: Yes, I think you were saying before about support with education and things to do with your time, so that void is filled, would've been helpful.  

Laura: Yes, definitely.  

[Factors in a positive outcome] 

Hannah: What would you say, out of your experiences, were the things that really contributed to a positive outcome for you?  

Laura: My supervision order had therapy for a whole year, which I really needed, it really fast-tracked everything because the waiting lists for therapy normally are up to 36 months, so having the social services on board I got a therapist and we did amazing work, she's helped me a lot in my life. So, that was one of the main positive experiences.  

Hannah: That's great to hear. And was there anything that the local authority or the social workers did that you found particularly helpful?  

Laura: It's like, once you're in their good books they really are supportive. It's like, when they're fighting for your kid, it's like, yes, it's just a battle between you two. But then once you're fine and they know what the outcome is, they are actually really supportive. Like, I remember on my supervision order they would ask me how many meetings would be beneficial for me, what I needed, if I needed anything 'you call us, not we call you'. Like, it was such a big difference, it was like, oh, okay, cool, to the point I started to worry if I didn't hear anything for so long. I'm just like, 'Have I done anything wrong?' And they're like, 'No, we're just leaving you, you're doing well.' But it just makes you anxious, because you've had such a battle with them.  

Hannah: Yes. So, again being informed and being able to make those decisions with them sounds like it was a really helpful experience for you, and again helped you understand what was happening, so when things go quiet you would have that reassurance.  

Laura: Yes, like, 'Oh, well done.' Even a quick text or something, like, 'Everything is looking good.' You know, just a little reminder that everything is fine, or just a little catch-up. But once you, like, go completely silent for a whole month, a parent naturally worries, 'are they planning something? Is something going to be thrown in my face?' You know, because you've had that battle with them.  

Hannah: What's the main piece of advice that you would want to give a social worker that may be attending court for one of the first times in their role, or maybe a really experienced social worker that is very used to it. What are the key messages that you think that social workers need to know?  

Laura: So, I wrote a letter to a social worker on the court stuff, it says, 'Dear social worker, I just want to start off by saying please judge us parents from what you see, instead of the paperwork that you read. Having things written down can make us parents look worse than it actually seems, and that causes tension in the working relationship before it even starts, and the whole aim is to have a working relationship that does not fall apart. To us parents it feels like we're getting attacked by darts because of all the things you've read about us in the past. You social workers already intimidate us, and we look at you like charts, because you have the power to move our hearts, yes, our children are our heart. Us parents would love for you to be straightforward with us and honest, so we can focus on keeping our kids, and keeping us out of the dark, not understanding a version of things that we did. There's always different versions of each story, maybe put yourselves in the parent's shoes. Maybe change the wording that you use, because nothing is worse than being accused. Try and see it from the parent's point of view, because it's the child that will lose in the long run if the job is done wrong. I know this by growing up in care, because even though I was removed from my mother, my life was still unfair, because I didn't get the real care or unconditional love. No one beats a parent's love, because a parent's love is like two white doves.'    

'And parents will want to fight social services for their children, but it should not feel like a battle, it should feel like teamwork. All the time, but we feel powerless, we feel like we're always under a test, we feel like less of a parent and that we have to prove that we love our kids more than you do. Did you know the whole experience of social services causes long term trauma for a parent? After you leave, did you know all the assessments and tests you put parents through cause us constant self-doubt in our ability to parent, and we doubt if we're good enough in general. For our children, if we pass the pain enough in general for our children, even if we pass the pain of the whole experience, it does last, whilst you guys move on with your lives and we still live with the guilt of our past. But you did not know that because you're there for the child, and I get that, but a parent is a big factor to the child, so parents need emotional support too. If a child could choose I don't think they would want to lose their parent. More support is needed to understand, and meeting in the middle, and giving a chance to change, because for their kids parents are willing to change. It is up to you, social services, to show them the right way.'  

Hannah: That was really, really powerful, thank you so much for sharing that. I think that's a perfect note to end on, that really shares such an important insight from your experience for social workers and what they really need to be thinking about when they're going through those court processes and working with those families and those children. So, I just want to say a huge thank you for that, for your time today.  

Laura: Oh, thank you.  

[Outro] 

Thanks for listening to this Research in Practice podcast, we hope you've enjoyed it. Why not share with your colleagues and let us know your thoughts on Twitter. Tweet us at @researchIP.  

[Introduction]

This is a Research in Practice podcast, supporting evidence-informed practice with children and families, young people and adults.  

Hannah: So, welcome to this Research in Practice podcast, my name is Hannah Scott, I'm a research and development officer at Research in Practice and I'm also a qualified social worker. And I previously worked in child protection roles. I'm delighted to be talking to Rebecca today, who is a mum of two daughters and she's got previous experience with care proceedings and social care, and she's going to be talking to us about her experiences in the family court and some key learning and experience sharing for social workers to understand the experience of parents when they are going through the family court. So, hi Rebecca, it's great to have you with us today.

Rebecca: Hello.

[Background] 

Hannah: Would you like to start by just giving us just a short, sort of, overview of your background and your experience with social care in the family court? 

Rebecca: Well, firstly, it started with my oldest daughter, her dad said that I had done child neglect, which I hadn't, but social services took it in as a high priority because, at the time, my mum had just passed away. And I'm not going to say I'm a perfect person because everyone has their faults but, at the time, my house wasn't decorated so that was, like, a concern for the local authorities. Her case was closed, we didn't go to court proceedings for her but, when I had my youngest, I had to show the local authorities that I was a good parent. So, when I gave birth, 2017, I was in the hospital for weeks even though I had my daughter because they wanted to place me in a mother and baby unit but they had to wait for a place to be available. So they put me under, I think it was an interim order, I can't remember what it was called. My solicitor went to court, they filed for it then I was placed in the mother and baby unit for 12 weeks. I feel like Big Brother was watching me because every movie I made, it's like they kept a whole tab on me. So I didn't know that, when I first went there, that you couldn't turn off the light, so you sleep with the light off, we had to have the lamp on and I remember the staff coming, 'Oh, but you've got to turn on the lamp because we can't see on the camera.' I would say it wasn't a good experience, being in the mother and baby unit. Some of the staff was okay because they had children so they understand what it was like to be a mum. But then you had staff that didn't have children and, to me, you're just reading out of a textbook because you're not getting that whole experience, you're not getting the real experience, you're just reading what it states in a textbook.

So they put me as my mother and baby unit thing came back negative because they said I didn't know my child's cues, I wasn't a good enough parent. But I knew everything about her, I knew what different cries were so I knew when she was crying because she was hungry, I knew she was crying when she was tired and I knew when she was crying when she was wet. But, to the local authority, I'm a risk. When we went to court, they said, 'She was high risk,' I felt I, I'm her mum, why would she be at-risk with me? I'm not doing that a mum doesn't do.

Hannah: And you mentioned, sort of, being in the hospital. So how soon were you in court after your daughter was born? 

Rebecca: So we had the child protective conference, the pre-birth one. The woman said that she would have suffered neglect and I was like, 'But she's in my own house, she's suffering neglect?' I gave birth and then my daughter's dad went to court, it wasn't even that long that we went to court.

[Coming into contact with legal professionals] 

Hannah: Okay. And was that your first contact, then, with, sort of, legal professionals in that legal arena, or had you had any meetings beforehand with solicitors to get any advice? Or was it the first time when you were actually in court? 

Rebecca: It wasn't, my friend's mum said to me that she gave me this solicitor and she said to me, 'Go there and get some advice because you're going to need it.' So I went, I told the woman, she came to court as my solicitor, she came back to me, she said that they were going to put me as an, I think it was an interim order, where I had to be in the mother and baby unit. So she sent me all the paperwork for that and then I was in the mother and baby unit so I didn't go to court until after I left the mother and baby unit. Because they have me another assessment to do, where I lived with this woman and it was like a foster family placement. But she was fine, she had no concerns because, at one point, they wanted her to put a monitor in my room, she said that she didn't feel like that was necessary. She didn't have any issues but, to the local authority, there was an issue. I was at high risk.

Hannah: So, when you attended court and for those first hearings and throughout the proceedings, did you receive the court paperwork to read through? And how did that feel, looking at those documents? 

Rebecca: I got the court paperwork and it was overwhelming because half of the stuff they're writing, I don't understand what they're saying, so it wasn't easy for me to understand. But luckily, I had, like, my partner's family to help me understand certain things. But it wasn't easy.

[Paperwork and explaining terminology] 

Hannah: Did you find, then, that it included, sort of, words and terminology that maybe people weren't-, social workers weren't using when they sat down to talk to you but then when those first words would appear in the court work? 

Rebecca: Yes. They won't say fancy, academic words when they're in front of you, they just talk normally but, when it's on paper, they're writing all these big words that you don't understand. I know you have to write when it's legal stuff academically, but at least write it so parents can understand what you're saying. Because, if we're reading it and we don't understand what you're saying, then that doesn't help us. It didn't help me one bit because I suffer from dyslexia, so it's, kind of, hard for me to understand what you're trying to say.

Hannah: And I think that the paperwork can be, you know, as we know, there's vast reams of it and it can be quite overwhelming to have a look at anyway, you mentioned the dyslexia. Did anyone sit down with you as a professional to go through that paperwork or was anything done differently to help you be able to understand that or access that in a way that helped you? 

Rebecca: Maybe not the local authority but my solicitor, she said, she explained ‘this is what they're saying, I can say on your behalf if it's true or not’ and I'm-, so it was easier for me to understand because she explained it more. She put it in easier terms than the academic wording.

Hannah: And is there anything that, you know, if you were talking to social workers and giving them advice when sharing that paperwork and writing that paperwork, what would be the main advice that you would want them to take on board as they're writing about parents and their children?

Rebecca: I would say you could write one where you've written it academically and then write one that, for parents that don't understand that academic wording, to write it simply so they still have your academic, professional, written part but you have one where the parents understand what you, basically, what you're saying in your paperwork. Because if it's easier, then they won't have to be sitting there trying to figure out what is he or she saying.

Hannah: And did you feel that the paperwork and the assessments reflected you as a person and you as a mother? Did you feel it had the positives and the negatives or-, how did that feel in terms of capturing that overall picture? 

Rebecca: Well, in the mother and baby unit, they were doing these little tasks, like, I've done that but I did that when I had my firstborn. So it wasn't anything that I didn't know how to do. I knew how to change a diaper, I knew how to make a bottle. The social worker would say a positive and then, in two minutes flat, you're given a negative. You don't even let the parent enjoy that one positive you're saying before you come out with your negative. And it's not fair because I know they're the local authority but they're not the one that's going-, making everyone pick every little piece of them as a parent. And it's not fair, you give a positive, keep that positive. Don't even say-, if you want to say a negative, give it a while before, give all the positives first, then give out your negatives. Or you could give out the negative first and then say, 'Oh, but she's done this, she's doing this well and she's doing that well,' don't just jump from, 'She's doing this well,' and then, 'Oh, but she hasn't done this,' you're building that person's confidence just to knock it back down again.

Hannah: Were there any surprises when you saw the court paperwork? Was there anything that that was the first time that that professional view had been put across to you or had the social workers, the local authority been very clear with you what their recommendations were up until that point? 

Rebecca: The social worker had his recommendations. That was fine, it's just the fact that he read a report about my eldest daughter and he just assumed I was that person. He didn't ask me, like, what had happened, how did this happen? Nothing like that, he just assumed I was this person. Because the way he would speak to me like I was a fool because he was speaking to me like I didn't have an education or I couldn't do this. And he was so surprised when, one day, I emailed him, he was like, 'Oh, but you can email me?' Well, I'm very good with the computer, you just didn't know this because you didn't take your time out to get to know me, you just assumed I was this person that you're reading on your paper. And I'm not that. I might not be book smart, I've just got dyslexia so I might not be book smart, but me, like, doing other things, I'm very good at.

[Voicing lived experience] 

Hannah: And so, when you first attended court, then, who was it that helped you prepare for that? Did you know what to expect, walking through those court doors and the set up? And what did people do that was helpful and were there things that maybe weren't done that would've been helpful?

Rebecca: I would say my, even though she was my solicitor in the courtroom but she wasn't my solicitor that sent me all the paperwork, but she told me who was going to be in the courtroom and who was going to say what on whose behalf. So she said the local authority has this solicitor, you have me as your solicitor, your partner has his solicitor, and then you have an advocate for your daughter. So that person will speak up on your daughter's behalf. And then we speak one by one by one. I will speak on your behalf, your daughter's guardian will speak on her behalf, you have nothing to worry about. It's not, like, a criminal court, it's a family court, so it looks different. So she explained that to me and I felt more relieved to know exactly how it was going to look in the room than me just walking in and just being overwhelmed.

Hannah: Yes. Was there anything about court that you weren't expecting that you hadn't been prepared for? 

Rebecca: I didn't know that you couldn't say anything. I know, because I thought it's a family court, you could speak to the judge but I didn't know that you couldn't. It was, kind of, weird that I couldn't say what I wanted to say but I told my solicitor what I wanted to say. She's like, 'You can't address the judge but I can address the judge for you, so whatever you want to tell me then I will.'

Hannah: Yes, I remember feeling quite surprised at that, actually, myself. Of how much of the discussions were also done outside of the actual court room when I first went to court as a newly qualified social worker and expecting far more of it to be discussions between the solicitors and the judge and working things out a bit more together. I was surprised at how much of that happened in those little rooms. So how did that feel, when those discussions were happening outside of the court? Did you feel like you were involved in those, did you understand what was happening in those discussions?

Rebecca: No because they all went in one room and they all started talking, why can't we all just sit down and talk? Why is it, like, why do you keep going back and forth, back and forth? But my solicitor, she's like, 'Don't worry about it, it's just the legal kind of jargon that we're giving it, it's got nothing to do with what the local authority, it's just that he's going to him so he knows exactly what he's saying on their behalf.'

Hannah: So the decisions that were made in those discussions in those small rooms, did you feel that they-, your voice was included in those on behalf of, you know, by your solicitor? Or did any surprises come out of the decisions made? 

Rebecca: My solicitor, when they had the discussion, she said to me she wanted to talk to me and say, she told me what they said. She said, 'You can tell me if it's true or not, because they're going to bring it up in court,' so I was like, 'No, that never happened, but I don't remember that happening.'

Hannah: And I think one of the other things you mentioned to me when we spoke before was about not having, sort of, new recommendations or contradictions by workers and the local authority being clear about what their recommendation was, as well. So not just saying it's up to the judge because the local authority will still be making a recommendation, do you want to say a little bit about that? 

Rebecca: We were in the mother and baby unit for twelve weeks and they had finished where I got my negative, it came out negative. So, because I said to the social worker, 'What happens now?' Because the thing, like, is finished. He's like, 'Well, I don't know.' But it's finished, so at one point they're going to want us to leave because we can't be-, our thing's finished. He was like, 'Well, I don't know, I'll get back to you on it.' So, by the time that happened, rather, he hadn't got back to me but we hadn't gone to court. So I said it to my solicitor, 'He never got back, I don't know what's going to happen,' she's like, 'Well, I think it's negative and our thing is finishing, so I don't know what's going to happen after that.' So she was like, 'What did you say?' I said, 'Well, he said he didn't know and he will get back to me,' so my solicitor brought it up to the judge in court, she was like, 'Well, the local authority hasn't told us what the next step is,' and he's like, 'In what circumstances is that? Because their mother and-, their twelve weeks has finished and they got a negative outcome.' So, what is the next step, if they're going to have to leave the mother and baby unit, where do they go? Because he doesn't-, he recommended that they don't go home, so where are they going to go? So the judge said that they had the rest of this week to figure it out, he's like, 'Because if you do not want them to go home, where are they going to go once the unit has to make them come out?' So he sent it back to court but it wasn't for us to be in court, it was for them to come back into court to explain to the judge where we were going to go.

I think it was, like, a week later after that. He said that we had a foster placement and then the foster placement-, the lady came, he's like, 'You need to pack up your stuff and then wait for the foster lady.' I said, 'I don't, like, get it,' but the thing was he never gave us-, not really any information about this woman. Like, were we were going. And I thought, 'Hold on, you want us to go into someone's house that I don't know, I don't know who they are and I don't know anything about.'

Hannah: Yes, that's a lot of uncertainty and not knowing what's happening. And then, quite quickly, by the sounds of it, moving to that foster placement with your daughter. What would've been helpful then? You know, I presume a bit more notice, of conversations happening before about at the end of the mother and baby unit, this'll be what happens, but what would've been helpful to prepare you for that next placement? 

Rebecca: I feel like you could've done a, like, before we moved, before we leave the mother and baby unit, you could have brought the lady to come and talk to us so we knew, like, 'I know her,' he brought her, she came the same day and she was coming to collect us. So it wasn't, like, to say I hadn't met this woman beforehand to know who she was, but I'm thinking to myself, 'I don't know this woman, I don't know anything about you and you want me to bring my baby into this woman's house that I don't know of?' I know that I'm going to be there but that's not the point, but she was a lovely lady, she said she almost said, 'I don't understand it, how this is supposed, like, how they did this.' They didn't give her much information either, she said, so she was quite-, she just thought it was mum and baby. She didn't know it was mum, baby and dad, she didn't know that.

Hannah: And so, did all three of you go and stay with that foster carer, then? 

Rebecca: Yes. We were in there until the last court proceedings.

[The assessment outcome] 

Hannah: And what was the outcome of those assessments, then, sort of, at the end of that placement, at the end of care proceedings? 

Rebecca: I know the lady's one was, like, she gave me a positive one.  

Hannah: So the outcome of the proceedings was that you and your daughter were able, and was that with your partner as well? 

Rebecca: Yes.  

Hannah: Yes, so that all three of you were able to go back home and live as a family unit. Yes. 

Rebecca: Yes, under the one year supervision order.  

Hannah: And, to reach that decision, then, and to go through all the, sort of, the numerous courts, hearings that are held to make those decisions, did you ever have to give evidence or did you have to watch other people give evidence about your family situation? 

Rebecca: No.  

Hannah: And how did it feel towards the end of the proceedings, then? When you were in those final hearings, did it feel more positive because you were having a positive outcome? Did it still feel a bit really daunting, and how was that? 

Rebecca: Positive because the social worker was, for some strange reason, seemed more positive than he did in the beginning.  

Hannah: What do you think had made that difference? Because you mentioned earlier about him not necessarily taking the time to see the person beyond the paperwork and finding out more about you. So what do you think helped that change? 

[Having real conversations] 

Rebecca: Maybe it's because I told him what I-, I wasn't rude, I just told him what I thought of him. Because he asked me, he was like, 'What do you think of me?' And I was like, 'Well, I find you patronising and this is probably why I can't have this conversation with you when you speak about my daughter, because you just come off as patronising to me, so I can't, like, trust you to say anything.' And I told him, 'I don't trust you from when you spoke about me behind my back and then lied to my face,' so that gave me some distrust with you. And he made it sound like I was losing my mind or something, because he was like, 'I never did that,' and the worst thing about it was I had three people around the table in the meeting that was in the meeting with you. So unless you're going to lie upon them as well and make it sound like that they're telling a lie to me.  

Hannah: Did that conversation change your working relationship, was he able to-, you've said about, sort of, him understanding and not-, telling him not to talk to you in a patronising way, was that conversation helpful? Did it change that relationship in the future? 

Rebecca: I feel like it changed it because we could talk, he could ask me a question and I would give him the answer. Before, when he asked it as, like, it's like my mind would shut off. It's like I'd go into my own world and I wouldn't answer him.  

Hannah: And did you feel that, throughout the decisions made in the, you know, you've mentioned numerous different assessments and we know that there's, again, all the paperwork and the various different assessments that are completed by families, and then there's the social work relationships, the interactions you have. Did you feel that, in all of that work, that your individual needs and culture and identity and personality were captured and understood? 

Rebecca: Maybe at the end, not in the beginning because I did go through a bereavement and no-one asked, no-one really did ask me how I felt about that. Even though I know it was, prior to it, it still did have an impact on me, it was only when I was in the foster placement they asked me how did, like, how do you feel. Even when I had the mother and baby, in the mother and baby unit and they would ask me questions about my mum, I wouldn't talk about it. I could tell them about my childhood, my relationship with my mum, but when it came to asking me about the day she passed away, it was hard for me to even talk about it. I couldn't talk about that.  

Hannah: Yes. So understanding the significant events in your life and how that had impacted you would've been helpful for them to know at the beginning. But, on the same note of understanding and being sympathetic with you that it was difficult to talk about and you needed that time to build those relationships to talk about it. 

Rebecca: The social worker, not the first one, the second one, he was like, 'Maybe you need some counselling, maybe you need a bereavement counsellor where you could, even if you can't tell, like, family members, friends, us, you could talk to somebody that you don't know and maybe that might work.' In the beginning, I'm not going to lie to you, I was very hesitant. I'm thinking, sitting there, 'I don't know this person, I can't tell, like, a stranger my problems,' but gradually, every session, I would say it worked because I got to the point where I could have that, when she asked, like, what happened between the day of your mum's death, I could explain it without crying, without feeling anxious. I could tell her and it was very comforting to know that I could tell somebody else my problems.  

Hannah: So that had been quite a positive recommendation by the social worker, then.  

Rebecca: The recommendation and was so helpful.  

[After the proceedings had ended] 

Hannah: And you've said that the proceedings and then with the supervision order, you and your partner are able to care for your daughter at home. So what happened after the proceedings had ended? 

Rebecca: Well we would have meetings, like, we would come together and have meetings at my house, the social worker I had wasn't my social worker anymore, he left. The social worker I got was his manager, he became my social worker. So he said, 'You'll have visits where I will come unannounced,' I was fine with that because I don't have anything to hide. Everything was in its place, I did a parenting course, it was called Strengthening Family and Communities, I passed it with flying colours.  

Hannah: So, like, would you say that course was helpful, then, and the things that were put in place in the supervision order were helpful for you? 

Rebecca: Yes, and I went through an ordeal through the supervision order and I was proper, how can I put it, I was proper nervous and anxious because I was thinking, 'Hold on, does this mean that we're going to go back to court?' Because I was so terrified, I was terrified but my social worker made me-, he was like, 'No, you've done every step that you needed to take.' Because I suffered a domestic violence ordeal during the one year supervision order from my daughter's dad. And I was so nervous, when it happened I phoned my social worker, I said, 'Can I talk to you about something?' He's like, 'You can talk to me,' but I don't want to talk to him. I said to him I didn't want to him over the phone. So he was like, 'I will make an appointment with you,' and it was literally the next, the same day I called was the next day he made the appointment with me. I came in, I explained to him that there was an altercation between me and daughter's dad. My daughter wasn't there, she was with her grandparents but he's, like, so he wrote it down on paper, at that timeline, there was a video that I had made because my ex-partner kept on following me around the house. So I had made the video where I was anxious, so I showed him that. He said to me, so it doesn't escalate and just in case he wants to-, he tries to come back, I need you to call the police and make a report on it. So I made the report, which I did, they came out, they took a video of the video that I made, he said, he's like, 'What's your worry?' I said that I feel like we're going to go back to court. He's like, 'We're not going to go back to court, what you've done, you taken the right steps, the first thing you had done was you phoned me and you told me about it. The second is that I'm telling you, I know it might be harsh but you need to make a police report so, if he does come back and he makes a scene, when you do call the police out, you've already got the report to state why you're calling out the police.'  

He did come back, he said to me he was going to keep… because my one year supervision order will have finished in August, he said that he's going to extend it, he's like, 'I'm not extending it because you're doing anything wrong, I'm extending it just in case you need help for your daughter's dad to see her. I can make contact arrangements that way so you don't have to see him and he doesn't have to be in your personal space.' And I was so surprised because some social workers might not… I might not have got that same reaction.  

Hannah: And were you in agreement of that, then? Did you feel that that was a good thing to happen, for the supervision order to be extended or did that make you worried? 

Rebecca: No, when he explained why, in the beginning, when he said, 'I want to extend it,' and I was, like, he's like, 'Do not worry, I'm going to explain.' He explained why and I felt fine and I had my ex-partner's family's support because they didn't condone his behaviour.  

Hannah: So having the social worker be very clear with you and explain the next steps and why that was happening was really helpful for you then to understand that process. Yes. 

Rebecca: And he said you haven't done anything wrong, you've done the right thing. So he did ask me a question and, when he asked me, I was, kind of, hesitant because I felt like, 'Hold it, does this make us go back to court?' So he asked me was this the first time that it had happened and I got hesitant because I was, like, no. It wasn't, and he was, like, 'So when did this happen?' And I explained, I said it happened when we were in the foster placement and he was so surprised. He was like, 'But why didn't you say anything?' He wasn't my social worker at the time but I was like, 'You lot said that, for me to have her, I needed him to be there so I was just thinking about-, I just want my daughter,' I don't want to keep fighting, so I wanted to go home with her. He's like, 'But you could've told us that, you could've said something,' I said, 'I don't know if it would've made a difference then if I had said something then, or would it have made it worse?' He's like, 'But you should've said something because we could've-, you could've done it on your own, in that case.' But I didn't know that, that's what they said, they needed him to be there.  

Hannah: What do you think it was, then, that supported you in that shift, to feel comfortable and able to be open with the social worker and make that call, which was a really big thing to do. You know, and being worried about the consequences to say, 'I need to tell you what's happened.' What do you think was helpful to get you to that point and that relationship with your social worker? 

Rebecca: It wasn't the same social worker and this social worker, he saw me as a person, just he got to know me as a person. Obviously, I'm one of his caseload, but he never saw me as that. He saw me as a human being, so it was easy for me to have that conversation with and, prior to that, I had already had spoken to him beforehand with my eldest, so it was-, I knew who he was already, so it was more easy for me to, like, have that conversation.  

Hannah: So having that relationship and understanding of each other was really helpful for you. 

Rebecca: It was really helpful. Even after, like, even when he down closed my case and everything, he was still helpful because he even introduced me to the whole thing of this parent advocacy thing. He's like, because they said that have you got any, like, old clients or clients that would be interested in that? And I've done quite a lot with the whole parent advocacy thing. And it's because he put me forward to it.  

Hannah: So having that support, then, after proceedings sounds like it was a really helpful thing for you.  

Rebecca: It was really helpful.  

Hannah: Is there anything that wasn't done after proceedings that you would've found helpful? Well, that was different to after, sort of, involvement with your first daughter.  

Rebecca: With my first daughter, I never had court proceedings but I felt like they could have done, when I had my oldest, I feel like they could've done more. Because, when it came to me, because my oldest daughter is very difficult to get on with, so I feel like I could've done with more help in that situation. I feel like, apart from the, sort of, first social worker, the other two that I had was fine.  

Hannah: So what's the main piece of advice that you would want to give to a social worker that may be attending court for the first time or working with a family in court for the first time, or maybe that's really experienced, what are the main messages that you think they need to understand about a parent experience in the family court? 

Rebecca: Be transparent, don't see people as, 'Oh yes, that's my case, whatever,' get to know them, understand why they're in that situation, because everyone's situation is very different. It's not like-, some people might not intentionally get themselves into that situation, so get to know them. Understand their, like, get to know their background and ask them what happened to get you here. Don't just feel like, 'Oh, they're here because they're being neglectful or they're this.' Make them feel comfortable to get to know you so it doesn't feel so overwhelming when-, because when you think of a social worker, all people think is, 'Oh, they're coming to take your child away from them,' that's the stereotype of social worker. I know of being in the sector in that situation, you're not just here to take away our children, you're here to help but some-, you're not going to get that because some of you don't know how to show that in a way for us not to feel like you're just coming to take our kid away from us.  

Hannah: And I think the other thing, which I don't think we've captured but I think was really quite powerful when you said to me about making sure that the local authority and the social worker are clear about what their recommendation is and not just saying, 'It's up to the judge.' Because it is up to the judge but the local authority will have a view, so do you want to just say something about that? 

Rebecca: I feel like you should plot out your key points, so you tell, whatever, the family, 'Oh, my concern is, point, point, point,' whatever it is, and then you can say, 'This is my recommendation to the judge, point, point, point.' So they understand what your concerns are but they also know what you're recommending to the judge. Don't tell them it's, 'Oh, it's up to the judge,' because you're the one that has to file back to the judge, so I really do get it if the judge is last, final say, but at least explain to the parents what your concern is. What the positive is, so what you're not mainly concerned on, so they understand, so you can be concerned about certain things and not other things. And then make it quite clear to them that your recommendation is to the court is, even if you don't write it in simple form, explain it to them in simple form so they understand.  

Hannah: Yes, it comes back to that message which I think you've explained really well about transparency, about being really clear in your written work but also having those conversations beforehand. And I think that is so important for social workers to do because, as you've said, that helps to build those relationships and help you reach that point where you can pick up the phone and say, 'I need to tell you something and I need your support.' So I think that's a really powerful message, thank you. Did you have any assessments of family members completed, were, what we call kinship care, were family members assessed as, sort of, potential carers for your daughter?  

Rebecca: They did it for a special guardianship, so it was my cousin, my friend and my daughter's grandparents.  

Hannah: And did you understand why those assessments were being completed? I presume that was at the same time as your own and how did those assessments happening feel for both-, for you and for those family members? 

Rebecca: Well, I understood it because they said, if you couldn’t have your child, who could have her? So I said my cousin because my cousin is a mum, but she felt uncomfortable because, to her, she was like, she kept on telling them, 'My cousin won't need me, she's got this, she's a mum, she knows what she's doing.' She'd done the whole thing but she was like, 'At the end of the day, my cousin's got this.' Where my friend now was, kind of, she was sneaky about it. Because she said things that I was, kind of, shocked for, thinking, 'Why would you say that?' Because I know, if the shoe was on the other foot, I would never do that because, if you're my friend and then you need my help, I'm going to help you in any way that I can. But I wouldn't make you sound like you are a bad parent. And that's what she had done, she made me sound like I was a bad parent.  

Hannah: And were you involved at all in those assessments of the family members to be able to, maybe, give your views and talk about your relationships? So was that something that felt like it was done quite separately? 

Rebecca: No, the social worker asked me, when he asked about the special guardianship, he said, 'Who were you going to pick?' And he asked me why did I want to pick them and what was the relationship? I said, 'That's my cousin and we have a good relationship,' and I explained to them that she was my daughter's godmother, even thought he was my cousin, she was still my children's godmother. And he's like, 'What about your friend?' I said, 'Well, me and her have been friends for nearly, over nineteen years and she was my youngest daughter's godmother,' so I'm thinking I don't put that title there for no reason and, when we're looking back now on the report, it was, like, do I even know you? Because what you see here, like, face-to-face is not what you're writing in that report because you're like, 'Yes, I've got your back, don't worry, any help you need, I've got you,' but then you're a writing a report that tarnishes me as a parent, how is that you being a friend and having my back?  

Hannah: And did that affect your friendship, then, and how she could then support you?  

Rebecca: It affected my friendship. I would say to you I can't trust her in any shape or form.  

Hannah: Is there anything that you think could've been done differently that might have helped that situation? You mentioned that you didn't think that your friend was aware that you were going to maybe see what was being said, is there anything that maybe would've made it a different outcome? 

Rebecca: I don't think, even if she did or didn't know that I was going to see that report, I feel like it would've been the same outcome. And I don't understand why.  

Hannah: And just, sort of, generally on the note, then, of assessing family and friends, carers, is there anything else that you'd want to say or any sort of advice, sort of, things that worked well or could've been done differently in your situation? 

Rebecca: No, because the local authority stated when they were going to see each person.  

Hannah: So you were happy for those assessments to be completed because it was people that you'd put forward that it was helpful for you to understand what was happening and why they were being assessed and when that was happening. 

Rebecca: Yes, the only thing that I would say to you that I didn't like is when the social worker said he wanted a photo of me, my partner and my daughter. And I was like, 'Why do you want a photo?' He's like, 'Well, if you don't get your daughter and she's put up for adoption,' it threw me off and I was, like, 'No offence to you but I'm not giving you a picture,' I refused with my whole heart not to give him a picture. Then he was like, 'Well, I might as well just ask him,' so he went and asked him and he got the same answer.  

Hannah: Was that your worry, then, that that photo might be used as a, almost as a tool to be able to remove her from you rather than it being something that was helpful? 

Rebecca: Yes, it threw me because I've never been through that and it was, like, it was so overwhelming.  

Hannah: It's really helpful, as a social worker, for me to hear that perspective because I've often liked that part about a special guardianship assessment because, for me as a social worker, as well, I do some independent work and I don't… it means that I'm working more with the carer that I'm assessing. And it really helps bring those children to life in the assessment and put those faces to names and make it feel a bit more real. But, like I said, it is a surprise to a lot of families when you suddenly say, 'Can I have a photo of you?' When that's not been done, the initial social work evidence never asks for a photo. So it's quite a surprise for families to suddenly be asked that. And I can complete understand why that would be a cause of anxiety, so I think that's really powerful for social workers to understand, as well. I think it comes back to that importance of clear conversations, as well, because in conversations I've had with other professionals and judges, they found it a really nice thing, to be able to say, 'Actually, I've got a picture of the child that I'm talking about and I'm making decisions about.' And the parents, even though they're in court, it can make it more human and that's a really positive aspect of having those photos. But it sounds like that side of that conversation wasn't held with you and that might have helped reassure you a little bit about why that had been asked for.  

Rebecca: He didn't say that, he used the word adoption and that's why he didn't get the photo. Because he never mentioned, 'Oh, so when we're in court and we're showing, we can say that this is the person that we're talking about,' he never did that. If he had done that, maybe I would've given him a photo, I don't know about her dad but maybe I would've given him a photo.  

[Advice for other parents] 

Hannah: So my last question is, we've spoken about what advice you'd give a social worker but what advice would you give another parent that's maybe entering proceedings or within family court proceedings? 

Rebecca: I would say be yourself. If you've made any mistakes then own your mistakes. No-one is perfect, everyone makes a mistake. I know it's hard to say, 'Oh, but I've made this mistake and I made that mistake,' but you owning your mistake, then, it makes the social worker understand that you understand why you're here. If you don't take accountability for your actions then they just feel like you don't care. So I would say to the parent take accountability so they understand that, 'Well, she understands that she knows why she's here, she's willing to make an improvement on whatever she feels like she cannot do or she's struggling with,' I know the social workers, they're here to help you so don't be so hard on them. Because I know a lot of us parents are really wanting to be hard on you social workers but I feel like you lot are not all that bad.  

Hannah: That's a really lovely point for you to make and I think, you know, it's been really helpful talking today. And I have to say, it's been really powerful, for me as a social worker, to be able to have that, sort of, neutral conversation with a parent and reflect on my practice and the practice of others. Because I think it's really important that, you know, you're saying not all social workers are bad but we do need to really think about how we work with families and how we build those relationships and have that transparency and support you through those difficult processes. So I think, you know, the experiences and your story is really powerful so I just want to thank you for sharing it with us and for your time today. 

Rebecca: You're welcome.  

[Outro] 

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