Understanding the perspective of a family with lived experience of homelessness, housing and social care

[Introduction]

This is a Research in Practice podcast, supporting evidence-informed practice with children and families, young people, and adults.

Rachel: Welcome to this Research in Practice podcast. My name is Rachel Fitzsimons, and I'm a Research and Development Officer here at Research in Practice. I'm delighted to introduce today's podcast, which is part of our Families and Homes Change Project. This national project brought together academics, professionals, and families with experience of housing and social care to consider how services can best support families with overlapping needs in these areas.

In this podcast, we'll hear from Dr. Kesia Reeve, principal research fellow at Sheffield Hallam University. Kesia is a dedicated housing researcher and led the Families and Homes Change Project. We'll also hear from Leanna Fairfax, a PhD student also at Sheffield Hallam, who has lived experience of homelessness, housing and social care.

In today's conversation, Leanna and Kesia will explore the issues from a family's perspective. They'll discuss daily life for families in temporary accommodation, the importance of the family's voice in their support, the experience of bias and judgement, the need for a trauma-informed approach, and what can work well in support provision. So, Kesia and Leanna, hi. Please do introduce yourselves.

Kesia: I'm Kesia Reeve, and I'm a housing researcher. I've been working as a researcher for virtually all of my career - about 25 years so far. And, I've always had a particular interest in exploring the experiences of people who, who suffer housing disadvantage. And so a lot of my research has been about people experiencing homelessness. And I come from a methodological position where we really want to understand people's experiences and so I do quite a lot of qualitative research, biographical research, to try and understand what happens to people and, and to have their voices within research. And over that time, of my research in homelessness, I… I noted how the women that I was talking to did have quite different experiences to the men, and these weren't always reflected in the reports and the papers and so on that I was reading. And so for quite a lot of my career, I've been trying to push forward an agenda that recognises the gendered nature of housing and homelessness, and that's very relevant to issues around families because it is often women who head up homeless families.

Leanna: My name is Leanna. I'm currently doing a PhD at Sheffield Hallam, in which I'll be focusing on women's experiences of temporary accommodation. I have experience with/in homelessness - I have been homeless several times for a variety of reasons, especially in relation to domestic abuse. And I have also got experience of working with social workers in the context of the parent with children. And also in context as a teenager, erm needing support from services.

Rachel: Thank you, Leanna and Kesia. It's great to have you both here today to discuss these really important issues. I'll hand over to you now.

[The realities of daily life for families in temporary accommodation]

Kesia: Hi Leanna. I know from previous conversations that we've had, that you've experienced homelessness a number of times, you've been in situations where you've had to leave your home. During those periods, you've erm, you've gone into temporary accommodation. I know from research that I've done and that others have done, that temporary accommodation can be quite a difficult environment to live in, particularly as a family. And I wondered if we could start by you just talking a little bit about what it's been like for you and your family living in temporary accommodation and your experiences of that.

Leanna: My experiences of temporary accommodation were not great. I don't think that I've ever really had temporary accommodation that was that was, that was suitable. But that I mean, the condition of the property, there was often, like, run down, like rats, mice, broken windows, hot water not working.

And obviously, as a mother, with children, trying to survive in that environment was incredibly difficult, especially when you’re trying to, like, for example, wash clothes because there wouldn’t necessarily be washing machines in… in temporary accommodation.

Which I can remember being quite surprised when I got my first temporary accommodation that it didn’t have the things that I needed. So that was, like, the washing machine, the cooker, even just, like, bedding and things like that. And that could be quite overwhelming when you’re in a position where you’ve got nothing.

And you're being, like, you know, you you're not being rehoused permanently, but temporarily. And you’re in a catch 22 because you can't buy things to put in the property because when you move, you've then got to transport it so that it would be impossible to get a washing machine, for example. Because then how are you going to then move when you do get offered somewhere more permanent? And secondly, you can be moved around quite a bit. So just because it's temporary accommodation doesn't mean you'll be staying there for the duration of the period. And you could then be moved elsewhere.

Kesia: What was that like in terms of trying to care for children? You were talking, for example, there about you know, just not having facilities. And so just, you know, everyday things that families need to do like wash and dry your clothes and, and those kinds of things. You know, what was that like?

Leanna: The first period that I was homeless, which I referred to earlier in2007… My children, I think my eldest was at nursery then, well supposed to be, but I never put them into nursery just because we was moving about so much. It didn’t make sense to, so he obviously missed out on that period. And then also that makes it difficult because, of course, like, you should sort of be getting that sort of, like, respite I guess it is, when they're going into school and you can get stuff done. So I wasn't able to do that. And I think, like, in terms of, like, just managing daily life, it was difficult.

Even when I lived in a hostel, I remember living in a hostel, and, they had shared facilities like the kitchen. But because of the environment that it was in and some of the residents that was there we didn't feel comfortable eating there. So every single day, we used to, like, practically go out and eat. Obviously, it was expensive, but this was in 2007. So the cost of living wasn't as expensive as what it is today. And I couldn't even imagine someone having to be - and there will be people - in that position today, who are having to eat out or think about every single day where they're gonna get food from, and the cost that that would, that would be. Right now, I, I, I wouldn't want to bear thinking about. Because back then, it was a struggle in itself, it’s awful, having to think every day, like, where can I go?

And the worst was, like, when it was raining, you'd be thinking, like, it’s raining, like, what can I do, and you would have to try and think strategically of how you could, like, get out of the place to go eat and stuff. And I think that, like, that was one of the, the worst periods.

Although, I’ve lived in accommodation that was in really poor, erm, condition. And that wasn't nice, like, and not being able to access facilities to cook. Again, that was reliant on sort of, like, getting a takeaway, but sometimes you could, like, get a microwave, for example, like, just a toaster. A microwave and a toaster and then you could make a few meals. But when I was in the hostel, erm yeah, that would that was I think that was one of the most unbearable situations in in terms of, like, doing food and cooking food and stuff like that and just living in a bedroom with children. It wasn't that nice.

Kesia: Thinking about some of the, like, the professionals that might have been working with you around these times, that were helping you access, erm, temporary accommodation and assessing your situation and, and so on. Do you feel like there was an understanding from them that these places that you were going to, whether that was the hostel or the private rented accommodation… Any sense that this wouldn't be suitable for you? Or what, you know, was it just about, like, we have a duty to provide this housing and that's what we're doing? Do you think they understood that putting a family with, you know, several children into accommodation where you weren't gonna be able to do the things you needed to do? You know, was, was inadequate?

Leanna: Well, from my personal experience, I don't even think that even came into the thought, of whoever was dealing with me at desk. It was just like, “Here's the property. Here's the address on a piece of paper. Bye,” That that was it. Like, there was no help with getting there. There was no help with understanding where I was going to. I literally had three children with my bags, and I would just have to go find that property - someway, somehow. So that would obviously be on a bus go into areas that I've never been to before. And some of these areas that you could go to, like I remember going to one property. And when I got there, oh, my god there was, like, about hundred people in the next-door garden, and they were just all just all staring at me. I walked away and refused. I went back to the council because I just didn't feel safe going there. I mean…

Kesia: Could I asked how old you were at that time, Leanna?

Leanna: I was eighteen.

Kesia: That sounds like quite scary situation to be in. I just wondered if you have any thoughts on how social workers might help families. You know, if they come across a family that's living in really poor conditions like you were you know, what, what might they do there to… to help or to kind of notice and do something about that?

Leanna: Erm, I think that firstly, it kind of requires the council to make changes to some of their policy, or local, local policy. For example, if there was an option in the priority category, that social services who refer people to the council are given a priority based upon their needs, then that would help social services to have the power to do something.

Because I think at this moment in time, I think, probably I'm not saying it's necessarily one of the reasons, but because there is ways around it, like I said, liaising with local charities, but they don't hold much power. So there isn't actually anything that they can really do in terms of, like, okay, this person is in really bad conditions. We need to move them because, for example, I've had bad conditions before and no matter what I've done, like, even writing to local MPs and everything. It's never done anything. So they wouldn't necessarily be able to do anything. And given, like, the extreme case loads and stuff. It's like the, the timescale of what it would take to do that and the outcome that is likely to have is probably nothing. So that’s probably why we’re sort of stuck in this situation.

But if the councils were to put a category in, that actually people who the social services refer, we look at their situation and, you know, whether they need priority or not. And, and if that social services input can have a weight, then I think that it's more likely to work and then they're more likely to work together.

Kesia: That's really interesting, actually. Yeah. Because when I was asking you the question, I was kind of thinking that, you know, a social worker who sees those kinds of conditions could maybe advocate to the local authority, maybe they should be getting in touch with their housing colleagues to say, “Hey, look, this family is living in really dire conditions. This isn't good for this isn't good for them or for the care of the children and, you know, we need to do something about this."

But I think what you're saying there is that, without some actual, you know, policy in place, that the social workers actually may not have that much clout and that much authority - even if they were to advocate. So what I was thinking about where some advocacy there might help, actually, it might not be enough. Is that, I think that's what you're saying, isn't it? And some, some actual policies and, and proper formal processes need to be in place to give the social workers that authority.

Leanna: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Because advocacy, it just wouldn't be enough. Like, like I said, in terms of social workers, they have heavy caseloads that, you know, their working to tight deadlines. They can't be working on, “Oh well, if we advocate for this person, they might get put in a better situation” because, you know, it wouldn't… it wouldn't work. They need to know that if they're putting in that letter, that formal letter, that actually that's gonna have some weight, and the council have to read that under their, you… you know, under their policy structure. Then obviously, it makes, you know, it makes good reason to do that.

And secondly, it puts the social worker in an incredible difficult situation. Because if they’re only advocating and then it depends who they're talking with, what connections they have, and then it just becomes incredibly complex. So I just don't think that that would work in practice.

Obviously, there’s agencies like, you know, you can get referrals to other agencies. I know I did some voluntary work for Family Action and they do that advocacy work like that. So obviously, social workers can refer people to such agencies like that for advocacy work. But in terms of like making real change, I think it comes from the from the housing side of the council. They need to create some form of policy in in their priority category that states that specifically, people who are working with social workers, where we receive a referral letter from a social worker, like, explaining their situation, that we immediately reassess the housing situation. To decide if they do need priority. I think that that that would make sense. And given the fact that they've got a lot of some social workers, as some form of evidence, that should be used.

[The importance of hearing the family’s voice, especially where multiple services and professionals are involved]

Kesia: During the development process for the Families and Homes Change Project… You may remember, Leanna, because you were, you were part of that. We considered a number of family journeys that were rooted in the experiences of actual families. And one of the questions that was asked by the development process participants time and again was, you know, where is the voice of the family in this? Where is that professional curiosity to ask questions? Like, what do you want? What do you need right now? How did this happen? Why did this happen? And to kind of look at those circumstances in the round and really treat the families as kind of equal experts in their own story and their own journey.

And, I kind of wondered if you had any reflections, Leanna, on the extent to which you feel like your voice has been heard and that the decisions that have been taken by the professionals that have worked with you had taken account of the needs that you have expressed rather than what they think you need.

Leanna: I don't think I've got any experience of that happening [laughs]. Other than with Women’s Aid, I would say, in terms of any other agency, it's, I don't feel like I've experienced that. I've always felt that my voice wasn’t heard and that it was never listened to.

Even, for example, when had social care involvement when I said the children got removed and they’d put my eldest with his father and I expressed to my concern with that, the problems with that, the history of domestic abuse, and, and drug addiction. Nothing was listened to. Erm, and then I thought that that ended up with him getting abandoned at my mom's. He never returned for him. So, you know, my voice there was clearly, I had well… I was well within my rights to have concerns… that what I was saying was true, and it happened, you know, had they have listened to me, that could have been prevented, but they didn't listen. So, you know, that's just one scenario of my voice, not being listened to. And there's like I said, I can't, I can't honestly think of a scenario where actually god, I was actually listened to there, I mean, which is, quite sad really, like, when... when you posed that question, I was thinking, I don't, I don't have no recognition of that where you feel like, wow. I've just I've just been listened to there.

Kesia: Is it that nobody asks the questions in the first place? Or is it that the questions are asked of you, what do you need, what's happening here, tell us what your views and concerns are, but then they don't listen? Or is it that those questions aren't asked in the first place that professional curiosity isn't there?

Leanna: I don't think the questions are asked to be honest, because, like, for example, like I explained to you with the first contact with the social services when they came to my… they never asked me what I need. They never asked me about the need or anything. It was just kind of like, you know, what's your position, what you're doing, but there was nothing about what do you need. And the same with housing services, when I've approached housing services, I've never been asked, “What do you need?” It's just a presumption that I just need a house. And there's no other there's no other support need there.

Kesia: Why do you think that is, you know, thinking about kind of how, how to change this? So like example, it occurs to me… You know, you're saying the questions aren't even asked and so my first thought is: maybe if the questions were asked, things would change. Even something as simple as that of, of professionals kind of having a sense of what sort of questions they need to ask and how to how to engage with the, the families that they're working with. But how do you think this could be changed in in some way?

Leanna: I don't know. It's incredibly difficult because I think in terms of social work, it's a bit outdated practice in the sense that they just kind of focus on the children's needs rather than the whole, the holistic approach of what does the… what do the parents need too? Because I think that I think that that needs to change ultimately. There needs to be more focus on what the parents need because the parents are the ones providing the care. If they're not getting what they need, how can they be giving to their children what they need? It’s, it goes without saying that, you know, they're not gonna be a hundred percent. They're gonna… they're gonna be worn down, the parents, so they're not gonna be able to provide what they need to that to the child. And so I think, ultimately, that is what needs to change.

In terms of posing the right questions, again, I think it’s that the… the culture of it. Of, of reflecting upon this is not just the needs of the child. We need to work with the family. What does this family need as a whole, in order for us to better support them? In order to provide the conditions for the children that they need. I think unless that is done, then I think any kind of questions don't really mean anything.

And also, there's still this presumption of, like, because you're there for the child that if you see things that are not being provided for that child. It’s kind of a reflection on their bad parenting, but it's not necessarily the case. Like, they… they might wish like, for example, in my case, when I didn't have a washing machine, I wish I had a washing machine, I wish I could have done that. But in… I was washing clothes by hand and hanging it… Like, if that's not a parent being a parent, like, you know, I was trying my hardest in that situation, but yet that was used upon me in a, in a judgemental way that, like, “Oh, your clothes smell.” You know, the clothes smell and stuff. And rather than looking at the situation and thinking, “Why does she not have a washing machine?” It’s not I had decided to sell it. Like, or, get rid of it, you know. And he did it washing machine. I just wasn’t provided with one.

Kesia: But that’s a really good, good example in the manner of by not asking, “Why is this situation the way it is?” you then make judgements about why it is that way, and they're often the wrong judgement. And I think we might come on to talk about that a little bit more.

I think what I was hearing there, Leanna, were two things. One was about reflective practice and improving reflective practice. But the other to me seemed like a policy issue - about the focus on the child rather than the parent. Because I guess, ultimately, statutory duties are about, in this context, are towards the child, and… and that's policy and that's legislation. And, and so maybe that aspect of it is… is a kind of message more for… for the policy makers in a sense that children's social care need to be able to think about the needs of the parent because that impacts on the child. So they need to see that bigger picture. And it seems to me that that's… that's a kind of policy issue, would you say?

Leanna: Yeah. Absolutely. I think that that’s why I mentioned that because I’m… without a doubt, I’m sure there’s social workers within the field that wishes that they could do more to support the family, but they're not in that position to, to make that decision. They're not in that position to go above and beyond. And I'm sure that many do want to go above and beyond. But again, restrictions on, like, the work caseloads is… is incredibly difficult. So they're not even in that position. And I think that's why a lot of social… they're not a lot, but there is some social workers that leave the field because of this. They feel that they’re not able to do what they need to do to support the families. And so then that has a long lasting impact on them and emotionally...

So I think it's important to acknowledge that - that the government needs to be doing more in terms of, for example, changing that practice away from just focusing on the children but thinking of the family as a whole. And secondly, in terms of increasing work force and reducing the workloads because, again, that has an impact.

Kesia: It’s a credit to you really that, despite all the experiences that you've had, you’re still very kind of understanding about the context in which professionals work and the constraints on their own practice. And you're still able to do that, you know, despite not having had very many positive experiences yourself.

[The risk of bias and judgement when working with families in housing need]

But you mentioned a minute ago, Leanna. You described a situation about feeling judged where - wrongly judged - and talking about the difficulties, for example, of washing because of your housing conditions, washing clothes and, you know, without washing machine and in poor conditions and really having to work hard to… to parent your children and doing absolutely everything you could in that situation - of handwashing everything and trying to dry it in a house that's damp - and the effort and care that that takes. But feeling that all professionals see is that, you know, those clothes smell a bit damp or they smell and the judgement that made around that.

So I wanted to move into talking about something that I know is an issue that really matters to you and it's something that you touched on when you took part in the Families and Homes Change Project, what you referred to as “implicit bias”.

So I know this is something that you feel you've experienced from others, and you talked about that a moment ago, and also an issue that you're keen to raise awareness of through your own academic and professional work. So I wanted to talk a little bit more about this, and I… I guess this is about the kind of judgements that professionals can make, about families, often about mothers, I think and people experiencing homelessness, that then affect the decisions that they make and kind of how that feels. So I just wondered if you could say a little bit more about some of those experiences that you've had and, and what that really feels like and how you feel that that implicit bias plays out in some of these issues?

Leanna: I've had quite a few experiences of this. For example, the one that I stated about the clothes. That was actually in the hospital records, in the hospital notes, and the hospital had noted this. And then the social worker then used that for their case in… in… in proving, like, you know, trying to get a care order, sort of thing.

So that was without no acknowledgment of my situation at time. Given that the social worker had been out in August and seen that situation and… and… and… and closed the case. But now that this was now being used against me, obviously, when you… you go to professionals, whether that's hospital, you think you're going there because they care. And I remember just like, it's had a long-lasting impact has that, and I remember reading the notes, and I was just like, like, I was in tears reading what they've written. Like, even just even daily interactions, like, “She came in smelling of smoke”, and just things like that. You're just like, why? So you're going to this a… place of care thinking that the hospital, the nurses and doctors are caring, but all the while just they're judging you. And like I said, that has had a long-lasting impact.

Whenever I go to doctors or hospitals now. I'm very, very, like, aware of this, and I'm just thinking, like, what are they thinking? Like, what could they be recording? And, like, for example, that gives me, like, really bad like… thing about making sure my feet, my children's feet were clean- and I always wanted the floor clean. And so I used to mop, like, three, four times a day because I didn't want them to have dirty feet… because God forbid it, like, anything happened and they needed hospital in the night and then it would be like, “Why have they got dirty feet?” Like, it's just things like that.

And then I remember another scenario when I was at… erm… when my children had just got the primary school place. When I told you we've been four months without schooling, and my son had - he's been diagnosed as autistic now - but he wasn't diagnosed then. And he was, like, having outbursts in school. But he didn't have them at home. So I was, like, to the school, look, it's clearly something going on here at school. I don't know what it is, but, you know, he's not like this at home.

And she basically tried to turn around to me and said, well, perhaps because they've been homeless quite a few times, it might have had a severe impact on his behaviour. And also because he doesn't have a garden, that this could be impacting. And secondly, maybe he doesn't feel safe enough to behave like this at home, like implying that he was like in some sort of like, abuse at home.

And I couldn't believe it at the time. I was like, I was infuriated . It was like, what are you even saying that… you're telling me that because my child's not got a garden… That he's behaving the way he is at school? How does that even make sense? I was, I was like I said, I'm just infuriated and… and… and… and now, lo and behold, you know, at 16 he was diagnosed as autistic, and I was arguing and fighting. Yet again, my… my voice not being heard that there's clearly something… That needs addressing with him. But there's something, like, not right, and I don't know what that is. And I wasn't getting the support for that. 

Erm, and again, you know that in those situations, I was incredibly aware of if you ever get social work involvement... Like, can you imagine the weight that that teacher’s… what she, what she said… would have with a social worker? And that immediately then, would make social worker go on the on, like, the defensive. They would be like, okay, then we’ll you know, that judgement then leads on to the other person.

And I think that's why it's really important as a social worker to think critically of the situation. Just because you've got this on a note from a doctor doesn’t necessarily mean that that that is the situation or the same with a teacher. You need to then think, actually, let me make my own judgement. And I'm sure that is supposed to be the case, but it's so very easily done that you just you take that voice, what someone else has said, and take that and put it in your mind, and then take it along with you.

You know, it’s just the same way as if someone said to you, like, “Oh, I don't like that person, they’re very mean.” And then you… you might not necessarily think that you're taking that judgemental with you, but your apprehensive at meeting that person because that person said, oh, that person is very mean. So I don't really know if I'm going to the like them. That is exactly the same situation, but just in professional role, it's being done. And it… it… it… like I said, it's… it's human nature and it's very difficult to override that but it’s important that it is.

Kesia: But there is, you know, there's a really strong message in there, I think, for all of us about when you receive information about somebody, you look at that critically and you consider or you… you acknowledge and understand that the person who is giving you that information might have their own judgements, implicit bias, unconscious bias, however you want to describe that, that they may not be aware of. And therefore, you need to take that information with a with a degree of a critical eye, erm, knowing that those kind of judgements filter through.

You know, I was quite shocked Leanna, when you were talking about the hospital note. And you have mentioned that to me before, and… and I, you know, I can't imagine how that must have felt to you to read that. But I think what I haven't fully appreciated was that that was then actually used as part of the case that resulted in you having your children removed.

As an example of us all just being so careful about realizing that there are trajectories. And an action or a decision that happens at one point can feed right through and has consequences right through someone’s life in, you know, and you’re talking there about one of the worst things that can happen to somebody around having their children removed. Yet… Yet that note in that file actually contributed to that without anybody understanding why it might be that your children's clothes might have smelled a bit damp or whatever. That was actually because of your housing conditions.

[The need for joint-working and trauma-informed approaches when supporting families with housing and social care needs] 

That brings us on to our next kind of topic that we wanted to talk about around prevention, preventative action. And you know, you've just described there some potentially some real missed opportunities to intervene and support you… that might have prevented your situation from developing in the way it did. You know, who knows what the alternative pathways could have been?

Leanna: I think most importantly is, like, people working together. And that's, like, not just housing and social workers, but it's also like health care professionals. Like, I don't know why, but counselling and therapy, like, is overlooked… Massively. How you can think someone who's been in a domestic violence relationship wouldn't need therapy ASAP is beyond me. That should be the first thing that's ever offered to any person who's been through any type of abuse and trauma because I've never been offered it. I've never been offered it from NHS. The only way that I've got it personally is I was in a position to pay for it because of my student finance, that's so I paid for it and that helped. But once I had it, I was like, why have I ever had this? Like, you just make sense of things. And I just look like, some people are in these situations. I’m looking them and I just think... why are they not being offered like mental health support? I really don’t understand why it is seen completely separate to everything. Whether that’s, like, just coping mechanisms, just everything, like, that that needs a big priority, I think.

Kesia: There's growing interest within practice, across different types of the services, about trauma informed approaches, and kind of understanding and recognizing particularly within homelessness services, but probably elsewhere as well that many people who have experienced homelessness have also experienced trauma. And you would hope that that might lead to a recognition around the need for things like therapy and counselling?

Leanna: You can give somebody everything in the world. You can give them a house. You can give them everything that they need. But if inside, they don't love themselves and they don't care about themselves. It would, they can't accept it. It wouldn't mean anything to them. So you wouldn't really necessarily see an improvement. And I think sometimes that's what, that's what gets lost also in translation because it's like, “Well, we give them a house… They give up. They left the house. Oh, we give them this and and, you know, they didn't use it.” They didn't use it because they're just bad people. It's because they've clearly got trauma and it's impacting them, like, psychologically, and that goes beyond any or any other services other than therapy. And that's where they need that service to step up and be like, “Right. Okay. We're gonna work with you. We're gonna do this therapy. And we you know, this is how we're going to work these things through.” Like, because how can anyone move on in life, if they don’t actually love themselves?

Kesia: So, I think we've probably covered a lot of this already, but I wanted us to just have some discussion at the end about what can we do given that we know… there are lots of, you know, really good people that go into homelessness services, go into social work profession, and want to make a difference and want to support people. But the systems don’t always allow them to do that or support them to do that. What changes do we think would really make a difference to... to the outcomes for families in these situations?

Leanna: I think, like, I said, it's just working together with other agencies as best as possible in the capacity that you can do so. Ensuring that… you actively seek… reflect upon your own judgements and… and… and think to yourself, actually, what's making me come to this decision? What's it based upon? Where is this thought going? Because when you are interacting with people, you need to be going with a blank canvas. You don't want to be going with any sort of prejudgement of past exp… even in, even in terms of historical context and past work with other agencies, for example, because you don't know that situation. You don't know what that support worker was like. You don't know erm the interactions that they had and want that judgement of that support worker and what it says. You literally go… I think it's really a part that you go with a blank canvas and make your own decision based on your own judgement of that situation.

And secondly, always question why things are, the way they are, and putting yourselves into that position and think to yourself... I think it's incredibly difficult to do this, because it's hard to understand unless you've actually been through abuse or, like, you know, when you were younger and you’ve not really had a great upbringing. It’s really difficult to put yourself in that position, but try your hardest to understand actually how they feel… to have been raised without real love. How may it feel to be… have been raised with abuse? And how may this pe.. person be thinking? Because I think the… the moment you go with judgement the moment that you will be faced with defensiveness from… from the person. I think if you go in with understanding and be like, actually, I can see that you've had these experiences in the past and, you know, you've explained this today, perhaps have you ever thought of it in this way… to try and break generational trauma but I think that's really important.

Kesia: That's one of the things I've really taken away from this conversation actually, Leanna, is… is the impact of that implicit bias and judgements. You know, that it's not just bad because it's a bad thing to do and, you know, it makes people feel bad but it actually has… can have horrific consequences for families and so how important it is to address that.

We can't rely just on individual practitioners building good relationships and collaborations at the front line or knowing who to talk to in the housing office or, you know, that there does need to be some attention paid to developing the systems that enable those practitioners to do that. The policies of the system that enable practitioners to do that is one of the things that I take away from our… our conversation today Leanna, in terms of what maybe needs to be done. But I don't know if you have any further… further thoughts?

Leanna: Yeah. We can kind of extend on especially on our last topic about therapy. It just made me realize the importance of it, in terms of services. Like I said, the certain things, the needs of families that might go beyond housing and social services. And I know a therapy service is extremely complex. So that's a whole different case. That's something that needs to be worked on quite clearly.

But whether there's any way of which that they can try… help families by looking at, you know, support and referral sort of agencies. Because I know, like, there… there is charities out there that do do therapy services and stuff like that. That might be useful. And it's really hard to sort of facilitate yourself round that when you're already going through difficult situations and you've already got trauma.

It's you know, I remember trying to look and it was like, erm, I'm so confused. I just give up. So I think that that might be really useful, if there was some way that it could create a system of which they know what’s available within the local area. I know, for example, because I've volunteered at a migrant drop in centre. They did something similar, so they had a whole book of, like, services on, like, particular subjects. So then you can say, like, or you can refer directly or give like the list of numbers to them.

That might be really useful because it… it is something that I've never been asked whether that was social services or housing or Women's Aid. I've never been asked do you want therapy? And it really would be – and explained why it was beneficial as well because there's, there there can be some stigma attached to therapy. “Oh, god, no I don’t want therapy!” So, you know, also start teaching and understanding, like, why this may be beneficial, what it could do, and stuff like that. Maybe, like, a great help.

And secondly, as well, relationship, training workshops. And like I said, I've never been offered that. Having the history that I did with domestic abuse and stuff, I think it would have been really beneficial to, to do something like to understand what a healthy relationship is because so many people in these situations have grown up, not knowing what a healthy relationship is. They might not have their dad on the scene or if they did they was abusive. So they’ve never really seen what a healthy relationship is. They don’t know how to deal with things in a… in a like a healthy way - even just having a constructive argument.

Like, that's something I've learned through university. Had I had never gone to university, I don't think… I think I'd still be still rowing in the street at 34 years old! And, and they, these are things what other people, judge people on. Like, “Oh, look at them”, but that's, that's, they, it's, it's sad in a way because they've never actually been taught communication skills. So they don't know how to communicate so they’re stuck in this this bubble.

And I think it's yeah. So I think it's the importance of… of including other services. And if there's a way in which you can incorporate that whether that's through referral or providing a list and also explain it to the people who you're working with, you know, this is an offer, you can apply, or I can refer you. It might take a while, but this is the importance of it.

And I think that's social care and housing services as well because I think when you go through homelessness, it is a traumatic experience, I think if we're gonna be doing trauma informed approaches, I think it’s really important that we acknowledge that what you're going through is a traumatic experience, homelessness in itself is traumatic. Having to work with social services clearly something traumatic’s going on or has been on in the past.

So it should be something at of the first point of contact that you, you know, that you consider that, you know, "I understand that this situation that you’re in right now is, you know, it can be traumatic in itself. It might be beneficial to try and look out for therapy and other services.” Just… just to put it on offer - I know that they obviously can't do much in terms of, like, getting them seen ASAP because that's a whole different matter, but just acknowledging it and including it in services to make it become more normal, I think.

Kesia: You did mention in a previous discussion that we had, Leanna, that there have been some moments through your life when professionals have, have just done something maybe quite small, but this planted a seed that has, you know, developed maybe later. And you talked about the way that professionals sometimes don't just, just as they perhaps don't realize the, the negative consequences on times of their decisions and actions. They might also not recognise the positive.

So, Leanna, you've talked today about your direct experience of homelessness and social care. But I know that you're now pursuing a career in academic research, academic housing research, and you're doing a PhD - you've had some research posts as well, some professional research positions. And so I'm just interested to understand why that kind of evidence-informed practice might be important to you. You know, what… what's motivated you to do research and, and whether you feel that you know, you hope that you can change things through, through that.

Leanna: Yeah. So I… I just wanted to acknowledge the that fact that I've got into this position in the first place. Because I know… that for many reasons, people are not able to do so even if they have the attributes they’re just not able to do it because of the energy levels with everything else that they're dealing with. Then I think that that maybe realized I want to do something positive with what I'm doing in terms of research. I… I felt… I think I thought to myself, I'm in a position where I'm able to bring my experiences and others’, and others who’ve gone through these experiences to the table, to… to able to bring a voice to people who are often not heard.

Not that people don't interact with these people, but often it's from a position of privilege, like people… I know I've got privilege in the sense that I'm an academic, but I've got the understanding of being in that position myself and very few people are in academia from that place.

And secondly, like education for me has… has brought so much to my life, because not in terms of, like, knowledge in the… the educational sense, but just belief in myself, self-confidence, understanding and loving myself is what it’s brought. And like I said, it again referring back to the interactions with people. Some of these lecturers have, like, had a long-lasting impact on me. They've literally changed my life. And although they won't listen to it, won’t believe it…Cos I’ve told them this but it literally it really does when someone actually sees something in you and has a belief that, actually, you know what? You can do this. You… you… you know, you've got this skill. You start seeing yourself completely different. Had I have not had these experiences, I don't know what position I would be in right now, cos I know that, like… like I said, my self-confidence, my self-esteem… was in an incredibly, like, low place. So God knows where I would have ended up.

But again, that's the importance of interactions with people. Even in terms of, like, normal settings, we can still do that now. If we're not judging people, we can see people for who they are. For example, I see people, within my area, like, oh, in, like, on other estates and stuff. And you can see their incredible intelligence, like, articulating things, maybe not in the right way, in the academic sense or in in a sort of, like, privileged sense, but they're saying things and connecting things up in a critical analytical way that is incredibly, like, useful, but also secondly, it's not as common as you would like to think. And… and these people, unfortunately, have been told, like, they're good from a young age, through education, from all of the services and stuff. So that they don’t really see that they’re capable of such things. And I think that yeah. So, so me pursuing my PhD and pursuing academia, it gives me that chance to not only improve myself, but also, erm, to provide a voice, a platform, for other people. And I'm really, I'm always aware of that when doing my research. It's that one thing that motivates me.

Kesia: Thank you, Leanna. Well, I think it's really great that you've come into the world of academia because it could certainly do with diversifying a little bit, to say the least. And I think you're gonna bring perspectives and ideas that we would not have otherwise and will be able to make a real difference to the knowledge that's then generated and then and therefore the kind of recommendations and solutions we can put forward.

Leanna: I hope so. That would be really good. Like I said, when I when I come across people's experiences even now, I've seen people going through certain things, it really does motivate me to keep continuing what I'm doing. Sometimes you can do focus, but yeah. So I hope that I can make some time change.

Kesia: But I think that's a great positive note to end on.

Rachel: Thank you so much, Leanna and Kesia, for sharing your insights on this really important topic. I'm sure listeners will have a lot to take away from your conversation.

[Closing]

If listeners would like to learn more, our Families and Homes Change Project resources are available on the Research in Practice website. These include a research briefing and practice tools designed to support leaders and practitioners working across housing and social care. Thank you everybody for listening and thanks again Kesia and Leanna.

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